President Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani joined FNc's Howard Kurtz for a marathon interview on "MediaBuzz" Sunday morning
"The fact is, the president of the United States has every right to ask countries to help us in a criminal investigation that should be undertaken," Giuliani stated. "I mean, suppose the political opponent committed murder, what are we going to do? He's a political opponent, so you don't investigate him?"
"The witnesses who came to me and told me a story that still has to come out," he insisted. "Which is: they tried to get it to the FBI for a year and a half -- remember, we're talking now almost a year ago when I first got this. The Mueller investigation was still hot and heavy. They were still going after him. I still needed all the material I could get to defend my client, which, by the way, I should be praised for, because that's what a good lawyer does."
"I was still worried that they were going to do some kind of a collusion nonsense, because I know how corrupt some of those people on Mueller's staff are, like Andrew Weissmann. So, I had to defend my client," he explained. "The Ukrainians came to me. I didn't go after Joe Biden. They handed it to me. They said there's a lot of evidence of collusion in the Ukraine. And, by the way, one of the guys involved in getting that evidence cut off is Joe Biden. Do you know what he did? I said, no, I don't know what he did."
"And then they showed me. They showed me the tape of the 2018 confession he made in front of the Council on Foreign Relations -- which, by the way, if it were a Republican, the Washington press corps, including you, Howie, would have gone crazy," Giuliani said. " CNN put out a report that the allegations against Biden are not supported by anything. Yes, they are, they are supported by three affidavits. That's a lot better than whistleblowers, three affidavits from Ukrainian prosecutors who say Joe Biden bribed the president of the Ukraine, that he put pressure on him, that the president of the Ukraine dismissed the case solely because of Biden's pressure."
Full transcript via FOX News:
HOWARD KURTZ, FOX NEWS HOST: And joining us now from New York is a key figure in the Ukraine drama, Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal lawyer.
RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PERSONAL ATTORNEY: How are you, Howie?
KURTZ: Doing well.
And, Rudy, let's start with the big picture. So, the president, as everyone knows, repeatedly denying any pressure on that July phone call. When he came out there on the lawn in front of the cameras and urged China and Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, the media consensus is, he doesn't see anything wrong with it. He admitted it. He pressured them on the lawn.
GIULIANI: There is nothing wrong.
KURTZ: Didn't he undercut your defense?
GIULIANI: No, not at all. There's nothing wrong with him doing it.
I mean, the fact is, the president of the United States has every right to ask countries to help us in a criminal investigation that should be undertaken.
KURTZ: That happens to involve a political opponent.
GIULIANI: Well, I can't help that. I mean, suppose the political opponent committed murder, what are we going to do? He's a political opponent, so you don't investigate him?
The fact is this is not a political opponent. It didn't start that way. But the media, which is completely corrupt and completely biased -- and you got like a really big story that's going to come out here about how corrupt this media is.
The reality is this Biden stuff, I've known it for six months. I started this investigation long before he was a candidate. I started it in November of 2018 solely for one single purpose, because I'm his defense lawyer and it exonerates him.
KURTZ: All right. We'll get --
GIULIANI: It shows that there was a lot more collusion in Ukraine than in Russia, and that Joe Biden materially assisted in getting some of that covered up and also by the way, got his son out and got a $5 billion crooked oligarch free, who is now running around Ukraine, thanking Joe Biden. That stinks to high heaven.
KURTZ: By the way, Joe Biden wasn't a candidate in 2018, but everyone knew he was likely to run. But here --
GIULIANI: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
GIULIANI: That means Joe Biden then is completely immune from ever being investigated?
KURTZ: No, I'm not saying that, Rudy.
GIULIANI: Yes, it is. Howie, two years before, he can't be investigated?
KURTZ: Here's the things -- let me get to the numbers (ph).
GIULIANI: You see this here?
KURT: Let me ask the question. Hold on.
GIULIANI: Twenty years of a Washington press corps that was --
KURTZ: We will get to that. You got to let me ask the question.
GIULIANI: -- corrupt. Corrupt.
KURTZ: You say you were representing --
GIULIANI: Allegation after allegation of corruption, never followed up, never looked at.
KURTZ: You say you were representing --
GIULIANI: James Biden, Hunter Biden, going back to the '80s and '90s. This stinks.
KURTZ: OK, we're going to get to it, but you got to let me ask the questions.
KURTZ: You say you were representing your client in the Ukraine and you did this at the State Department's request, and that's fine. I'm not sure you get that many people feel that this is a role for government officials, that as the president's personal lawyer --
GIULIANI: It is.
KURTZ: -- that your presence makes it look more political.
GIULIANI: It is. However, the government wasn't doing it. The witnesses who came to me told me a story that still has to come out, which is they tried to get it to the FBI for a year and a half -- remember, we're talking now almost a year ago when I first got this.
The Mueller investigation was hot and heavy. They were still going after him. I still needed all the material I could get to defend my client, which, by the way, I should be praised for, because that's what a good lawyer does.
I was -- I was still worried that they were going to do some kind of a collusion nonsense, because I know how corrupt some of those people on Mueller's staff are, like Andrew Weissmann. So, I had to defend my client.
Ukrainians came to me. I didn't go after Joe Biden. They handed it to me.
They said there's a lot of evidence of collusion in the Ukraine. And, by the way, one of the guys involved in getting that evidence cut off is Joe Biden. Do you know what he did? I said, no, I don't know what he did.
And then they showed me. They showed me the tape of the 2018 confession he made in front of the Council on Foreign Relations -- which, by the way, if it were a Republican, the Washington press corps, including you, Howie, would have gone crazy.
We'd've had three months of investigation for that.
KURTZ: Just for the viewers --
GIULIANI: Instead, what happens with Biden, they cover it up. They cover it up.
KURTZ: Well I think it's being covered. I want to get to --
GIULIANI: No, it's not being investigated. I'll give you an example, ABC -- let me give you an example about what you covered. NBC put out a report -- I'm sorry, CNN put out a report that the allegations against Biden are not supported by anything.
Yes, they are, they are supported by three affidavits. That's a lot better than whistleblowers, three affidavits from Ukrainian prosecutors who say Joe Biden bribed the president of the Ukraine, that he put pressure on him, that the president of the Ukraine dismissed the case solely because of Biden's pressure.
Now, they could be lying. They could be lying.
KURTZ: When you say -- hold on, when you say bribed, you mean -- used the threat of withholding federal loan guarantees.
GIULIANI: Here's the definition -- maybe a law school lesson. Here's the definition of bribery.
Bribery is offering something of value in exchange for official action. $1.2 billion loan guarantee, by the way, is something of value. No dispute about that.
The official action that he extorted was firing the prosecutor, and there are three affidavits to that effect. So, whether they are telling the truth or not, when CNN says there's no evidence to support it, it's a corrupt lie. It's the same reason they have been covering it up for 10 years.
There isn't anybody in Washington that doesn't know that for 20 years there have been rumors about James Biden selling his brother's office for millions, and Hunter doing it for hundreds of millions.
KURTZ: All right. I'm going to get to that, I'm going to get to that in a second, but I've got to ask you one more question about your role, and it is this --
GIULIANI: They cover up for people they like.
KURTZ: Hold on, hold on, Rudy.
The former special envoy to the Ukraine -- to Ukraine, excuse me, Kurt Volker, testified that you told him -- there was a whole back-and-forth about a public statement after the July phone call with President Trump that Ukraine was going to make, that you told them that just the general language of Ukraine saying we're going to crackdown on corruption was not enough, that they had to publicly mention Burisma, the Ukrainian oil giant that was paying big bucks to Hunter Biden, the former vice president's son, and possible 2016 election meddling, or else --
GIULIANI: That isn't what happened.
KURTZ: Or else, or else, let me just finish the question --
GIULIANI: Or else, I never said or else.
KURTZ: No, no, it was (ph) clear from what Volker says, or else, from the text --
GIULIANI: Then Volker is wrong.
KURTZ: Let me get the question out. That Zelensky would not get a meeting with President Trump.
So, how is that not pressuring Ukraine?
GIULIANI: Well, first of all, even if it is pressuring Ukraine, it's a lot different than what Biden did since the purpose of questioning is to get a criminal investigation about a scandal at the highest level of our government uncovered, that the Washington press has been covering up for three years deliberately, and about which they are now going after me personally because they want to get -- they want to -- they want to get me, the messenger, so they don't have to deal with their honey boy, Biden, who's been a crook for 30 years.
KURTZ: For 30 years --
GIULIANI: Sorry, I've gone after crooks a lot tougher than him. Now --
KURTZ: You prosecuted a lot of folks when you were U.S. attorney.
GIULIANI: Let me explain to you about Volker. My --
KURTZ: I want to ask you about your general charge. OK, go ahead on Volker.
GIULIANI: Let me answer about Volker.
KURTZ: Go ahead.
GIULIANI: My texts, including their internal texts, proved beyond a doubt, they reached out for me. I had finished my investigation five months early, they reached out for me. They asked me to talk to Mr. Yermak. I did it under their direction and control. I reported back to them, I discussed with them.
The statement is clearly, from the text, their idea, not my idea. They asked me my advice about the text. I didn't tell them he must, he should, he has to, he must.
I said -- I gave them my advice about what would give everybody comfort that the corrupt Ukrainian government, that has been corrupt for a long time, was on the right road, that it was willing to root out corruption no matter who it hurt, without fear of favor, the way our agency should be able to do but don't.
KURTZ: Rudy, how do you backup --
GIULIANI: They cover up for Democrats and they go after Republicans.
KURTZ: How do you backup --
GIULIANI: Because we have a corrupt system going on in Washington called a double standard.
KURTZ: How do you backup --
GIULIANI: And if it's not broken, we're going to continue to have an alienated America, and somebody has to get above politics and have the wisdom to see that.
KURTZ: How do you backup your broader charge that members of the Biden family were cashing in on his political prominence?
GIULIANI: About 100 newspaper articles going back to the '80s saying that his brother was selling his public office. How about -- I'll get one or two, Howie. How about this one?
His brother: We got people all around the world who want to invest in Joe Biden. That's James Biden.
We've got investors lined up in a -- with 747s filled with cash, ready to invest in this company, the executive remembers James Biden saying.
The guy -- the guy was under investigation.
KURTZ: Let me just -- let me just -- let me just --
GIULIANI: The guy bankrupted --
KURTZ: Let me just tell the audience --
GIULIANI: He's been selling -- Howard, you asked a question. You've got to take the answer.
KURTZ: I've to get -- clue people in here.
GIULIANI: But it's a big answer.
KURTZ: There's a law -- I'll give you the time in just a moment.
GIULIANI: Because the guy was doing it for years, selling his brother's office for years. How about this?
KURTZ: OK, James Biden. No, no, I don't want to move on yet. James Biden in a lawsuit with executives, "Politico" had a story on this in August, unnamed executive --
GIULIANI: But nobody covered it. Nobody picked it up.
KURTZ: OK, but maybe that's because there's no claim even in lawsuit that Joe Biden knew about this.
GIULIANI: Howie, you can't be that naive.
KURTZ: No, no, no, I'm not in favor of relatives of politicians trading on the family name.
GIULIANI: Well, then, he's been doing it for 30 years.
KURTZ: There's a lot of people who do that here in Washington.
GIULIANI: He's been doing it for 30 years.
KURTZ: But you're throwing out the name -- the brother of the vice president accused in a lawsuit, and there's no specific allegation against Joe Biden.
GIULIANI: That's a specific allegation.
KURTZ: There's no charge against Joe Biden.
GIULIANI: Here is the allegation. Joe Biden says he's never discussed his family's business with his family, OK? For 30 years, there have been articles about his family business, selling his name. Did he ever read any one? Did he ever read any single one of them?
If my brother -- there were article about my brother when I was mayor selling my office, I'd call my brother into my office and I'd say, brother, cut it out, damn it -- as opposed to, I don't know about it, I didn't hear it. And you all buy that. Bull.
And you should be ashamed of yourself, your profession, for taking that answer. Thirty years of articles. James Biden selling it out.
Here's another one.
KURTZ: OK, I've got a break coming up.
GIULIANI: James Biden made money in Ukraine. He made $500,000 from another Ukrainian that Joe Biden was supporting just when Biden --
KURTZ: I'm going to get to that right after it (ph). Rudy --
GIULIANI: And how come -- how come they make money wherever Biden is put in charge? So, Obama puts him in charge of Ukraine. They make $5 million.
KURTZ: Rudy, Rudy, I've got -- I've got a hard break coming up.
GIULIANI: China, $1.5 million.
KURTZ: More on this -- more with the former mayor in just a moment.
GIULIANI: It's very hard to --
KURTZ: We're back with Rudy Giuliani.
And, Mayor, as we went to break, you were talking about a $500,000 loan, a second mortgage to James Biden, Joe's brother --
KURTZ: -- for a Florida vacation home in 2015 from a company controlled by a guy, this was in "Politico" in August, John Hynansky. He's a Ukrainian-American businessman, a family friend in Delaware and a longtime Joe Biden donor.
The "Politico" article says there was no indication the loan influenced Joe Biden's official action, and finally, in the piece, the spokesman says the loan was secured by a private residence. It was a 6 percent loan --
GIULIANI: You've been cut off --
KURTZ: -- it's a 6 percent --
GIULIANI: I can't hear you.
KURTZ: Have we lost contact?
GIULIANI: You have to reconnect the microphone.
KURTZ: OK, let me pause for a minute and see we can -- what the deal is --
GIULIANI: All I can tell you is that "Politico" will always say that about Joe Biden. They didn't bother to investigate it.
So, then if you put together about 30 of these situations, of which there are about 30, Hynansky, first of all, was doing business in Ukraine, Joe Biden went there to give him an assist for his business in Ukraine. It happens at exactly the same time that Burisma happens.
So, you've got the kid making $5 million and you got the brother getting -- I'm not connected. I can't hear him.
KURTZ: Rudy, we're going to work on that. I know you can't hear me, but I will just tell the audience that we're talking about this case.
And the point that I was going to make, and we'll get the mayor back in a moment, is that it was a 6 percent loan above prevailing market rates. So, the counterargument here, and "Politico" did investigate this, is that it was not a sweetheart loan, a low interest loan, and there's no indication that Joe Biden did anything to help produce it.
I'll keep talking while we wait -- OK, still cannot hear.
Let's try to fix that when we can. Another point that I wanted to make, as we deal with our technical difficulties, is that it is fair game to raise questions about family members of a prominent person -- certainly, a person running for president while he's still considered to be the Democratic front runner.
We need to break?
OK, control room tells me to break. We'll be right back.
KURTZ: So, we're going to bring back Rudy Giuliani. We have technical difficulties with our bureau in New York, but he will continue in the meantime. OK, see, this is live television, folks.
Rudy Giuliani joining us now from New York.
Mayor, I apologize for the technical difficulties.
GIULIANI: That's OK.
KURTZ: We were talking about this $500,000 second mortgage. And I was making the point that if it's a 6 percent loan above market rates, it's not a sweetheart deal.
You have a lot of people around Joe Biden,, and you are saying, who you believe have benefited from their association with the guy who rose to be vice president, but your -- by your bringing up, now you're extending it to the vice president's brother, doesn't it again appear, you're the president's defense lawyer, he's facing impeachment charges in the House, that you are trying to discredit or perhaps knockout one of his main rivals?
GIULIANI: I'm trying to get somebody to investigate what is massive corruption in the Obama administration. A pay for play scheme that goes back to the early days in which Joe Biden's brother James Biden, and since -- you know, I got cut off, I didn't point out the fact the Ukrainian-American who you're talking about, that gave the $500,000 to the brother, got $20 million to open up a car dealership in the Ukraine, from the federal government and Joe Biden went all the way to the Ukraine to give a speech to explain what a good car dealer he was.
KURTZ: He's a family friend from Delaware. I'm not defending it.
GIULIANI: Yes, OK, you know how much of this there is? One after the other after the other.
Then, of course, he flew his son to China. Eight days later, his son received $1 billion from the Chinese government into a private equity fund where he was a partner and the nephew of Whitey Bulger -- I'm not making that up -- and the Chinese government.
In other words, while Joe Biden was negotiating for the United States, his son was a partner with the Chinese government making millions. Since it was a private company, we don't know how much the Chinese government was paying him.
KURTZ: Well, just briefly -- Hunter Biden says that -- his spokesman says he didn't make any money from this. He was an investor in this firm that, yes, had Chinese partners.
KURTZ: All right. You find that amusing.
GIULIANI: But no -- I find it amusing. Nobody investigated.
So, Donald Trump says, I didn't do anything wrong, but you're investigating it, Howie. Donald Trump says, I didn't do anything wrong, but you're investigating. This kid who's been taking down millions for years and has a drug problem and failed out of the Navy because he has a drug problem and got in the Navy at 43 years old -- Joe didn't pull strings corruptly to do that? Give me a break.
KURTZ: Well, the question is, whether it can be proven? Which is the question you'll be asking if you were still a prosecutor.
GIULIANI: No, the question -- will somebody -- will somebody investigate it?
GIULIANI: Could you just -- just listen for one second. Here's the difference. We've got an anonymous whistleblower who says that Donald Trump did something wrong. Donald Trump, like Hunter Biden, says, I didn't do anything wrong.
KURTZ: Forget the whistleblower. We have the transcript of the call and the president's remarks on the lawn.
GIULIANI: Shhh! Shhh! Wait, wait, before you interrupt me, Howard, I know you want to defend it so bad.
KURTZ: I don't want to defend anything. I'm asking questions. I am asking questions.
GIULIANI: You do, you do, it's pathetic. It's pathetic.
Listen to me, just listen to me, one second.
Hunter Biden says, I didn't do anything wrong -- stop, stop, no investigation, nothing. This all should have stopped when President Trump said, I didn't do anything wrong. You never should have never even gotten the transcript, if we're just going to believe him.
Joe Biden says, I never talked to my family about family business. However, the family business is in the newspapers. "The New York Times" in December of 2015 writes an article about how corrupt and how conflicted the relationship is with the kid. They say, how could the most corrupt oligarch in Ukraine be paying the vice president's son when the vice president has been tasked by Obama to give out money in the Ukraine?
So, when Joe Biden says, I didn't know about my son's entanglement in Ukraine, we have to believe he didn't read "The New York Times".
KURTZ: Oh, there's been many articles since then.
GIULIANI: However, we do, but we do --
KURTZ: I got to ask you one more question.
GIULIANI: But we do believe it. You won't buy that. You won't buy it.
KURTZ: I'm not a making a judgment, I'm here to interview you.
GIULIANI: No, no, what you as an investigative reporter should say to yourself, and that would happen with Trump immediately is, when Hunter Biden says, oh, I never made any money on this -- stop? No more, no more stories? No more --
KURTZ: I understand you're suggesting --
GIULIANI: No more invest --
KURTZ: Well, there's been a spate of stories about Hunter Biden this year, "New Yorker", "Washington Post", "New York Times".
GIULIANI: All of which -- all of which say it's debunked, Hunter Biden -- nobody's asked for the records. Let them produce the records of your private equity fund.
KURTZ: All right. One more question about your role in Ukraine, because you had dealt with the recently fired --
GIULIANI: My role in the Ukraine is trying to get out corruption.
KURTZ: Hold on, let me ask the question.
GIULIANI: I know the question (ph).
KURTZ: You dealt with the recently fired prosecutor Lutsenko, who is now under investigation himself.
KURTZ: He says he told you there was no evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens. A story in today's "New York Times" quotes you as calling him a liar. In retrospect, was it not the best judgment to rely on this guy?
GIULIANI: No, he was the only guy willing to come forward. I took his evidence. I have it -- I have it in a written statement, and I'm the first one to reveal the fact that he was lying.
Because it's not just about that, Howie, it's about the fact that Lutsenko is now run away from the Ukraine and probably paid money to the president of the Ukraine in order to fix this case.
The witness I'm relying on, if you paid any attention to what I did last week, is someone named Viktor Shokin. That's the affidavit I put out, plus two others, Kulyk (ph) and Kalenak (ph). Those three all say that Joe Biden pressured the president to fire Shokin, because Shokin had just come upon a laundered $3 million transaction to Hunter Biden.
And he was told by the Croatian, by the Serbian (ph) government that the United States government would not allow them to give that information out. That's the reason they say they were fired.
GIULIANI: Now, I grant you they could be lying, but, boy, that's a lot stronger proof than any silly whistleblower nonsense about something that is not even a crime that we're going into an international conniption over with a phony House investigation.
Why are we treated differently?
KURTZ: I have one more question. I have one more --
KURTZ: I understand --
GIULIANI: Why are Republicans treated differently?
KURTZ: Well, the big story because --
GIULIANI: Because it's (INAUDIBLE), it's unjust, and because the press -- because the press is in their pocket. Bad, really bad.
KURTZ: I need a half-minute answer. The Biden campaign, the Biden campaign --
GIULIANI: And you should want to root it out.
KURTZ: The Biden campaign has written to the networks saying that you should not be booked on any show on television because journalists are allowing you to make unhinged, unfounded and desperate lies. Your response?
GIULIANI: You don't let me get a sentence out, you contradict me immediately.
You watch the interview with one of the Biden cronies or one of the Democratic lapdogs, and they get 15 minutes to answer a question and they get to say stupid things like, Hunter Biden says, I didn't do it, end of story.
With me, they contradict me before I get one minute into the sentence. So, I don't get to say anything uncontradicted. The reason they don't want me on is, they know something you're not reporting on.
I've got it all. I've got it all.
KURTZ: All right. This conversation will continue --
GIULIANI: There's a lot more to come out. We haven't moved to Romania yet. Wait until we get to Romania. Here's my concern --
KURTZ: Got to go.
GIULIANI: The guy is a crook, big time, and he made a mockery of the United States of America. We are laughed at in the Ukraine. In the Ukraine, they say, you lecture us on corruption and your idiot press can't figure out that we were paying off Joe Biden. And what do you think the Chinese think?
KURTZ: Rudy Giuliani --
GIULIANI: The Chinese were paying $1.5 billion to this kid? They were buying the vice president.