Former NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani debates CNN host Chris Cuomo about allegations of wrongdoing in the FBI investigation into Hillary Clinton's private email server and the political battle over Obamacare. Giuliani was criticized by Cuomo for living in what he described "Trumpland" where "facts are all over the place."
"I have looked up to you my entire life because you're so accurate, and all of a sudden you're in Trumpland and the facts are all over the place. He didn't get a penny," the son of former New York Gov. Mario Cuomo told Giuliani Wednesday morning on CNN's New Day.
Full transcript of the 20-minute combative interview, via CNN:
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN: All right, Jeff. Here to make the case for Donald Trump is former New York City Mayor and Trump senior adviser Rudy Giuliani. Mr. Mayor.
RUDY GIULIANI, (R) FORMER NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: Chris, nice to see you again.
CUOMO: It's good to see you smiling.
(LAUGHTER) CUOMO: At the Al Smith dinner the other night, you looked like grumpy cat. You were upset. You had -- you didn't like the jokes that Hillary Clinton --
GIULIANI: It wasn't so much the joke. You know what it was?
CLINTON: You said you want to see her in an orange jumpsuit and be convicted by now if you were prosecutor.
GIULIANI: Yes, true.
CLINTON: Where is this coming from?
GIULIANI: Coming from being U.S. attorney for five years and assistant U.S. attorney for six years and federal investigator for two, law clerk. The crimes she committed are so many, and I see a general like Cartwright get prosecuted for confirming two classified documents that had already been out there. And I see her having given classified documents to people without classifications a lot of people on her staff, straight out federal crime --
CUOMO: But you know --
GIULIANI: Extremely careless in the handling of classified information amounts to the crime of gross negligence.
CUOMO: But that's not what Comey said.
GIULIANI: I don't care what Comey said. I can have my own opinion. He used to work for me.
CUOMO: I know. Look, I know you know him. I know you respect him.
GIULIANI: I can have my own opinion.
CUOMO: You've said it before on this show. You certainly can have your own opinion. But it seems like you are feeding the Trump argument that it was fixed. That it was rigged. That Comey should have brought a case and didn't on purpose.
GIULIANI: Well, first of all --
CUOMO: You mean that?
GIULIANI: I mean the first part, not the second. He should have brought a case.
CUOMO: That's your opinion that he should have brought a case?
GIULIANI: Oh, 100 percent.
CUOMO: But you don't think that James Comey --
GIULIANI: I will argue that with any lawyer in America that he should have brought the case.
CUOMO: Fine but you're too smart for me to have that argument --
GIULIANI: I win that argument --
CUOMO: Donald Trump says that he thinks the FBI rigged it for Clinton, the DOJ rigged it for Clinton. Do you agree with that?
GIULIANI: I can't agree with that because I have no facts to prove it other than the logical analysis of the facts that she destroyed 33,000 e-mails after getting congressional subpoenas. That's like an automatic indictment.
CUOMO: She didn't. Right?
GIULIANI: People under her control. The statute says --
CUOMO: Although the FBI determined in giving the guy an immunity deal, and they both know why he did that, they thought he was going to give up the chain, they've decided that he essentially went rogue and deleted these things after the subpoena because he was supposed to delete them before.
GIULIANI: She wasn't careful enough --
CUOMO: And he says you don't prosecute that statute under gross negligence. They have to show that you lied to the FBI, they have to show intent, and that's how they prosecute this statute.
GIULIANI: No, no, there's a gross negligent statute under which there have been 12 or 15 prosecutions.
CUOMO: Over like 100 years.
CUOMO: It's an old law and they don't usually prosecute it --
GIULIANI: And there's never been one of this dimension.
CUOMO: He didn't agree with you, which is fine. You're a brilliant legal mind. I'm not making that case. I'm saying Donald Trump suggests he did it on purpose. He rigged it. Do you think it's responsible for him to say that?
GIULIANI: I think it is based on the facts of things like the number two guy in the investigation turns out to have gotten $675,000 --
CUOMO: He didn't get a penny.
GIULIANI: His wife got the money.
CUOMO: I mean, Rudy --
GIULIANI: What --
CUOMO: -- I have looked up to you my entire life because you're so accurate, and all of a sudden you're in Trumpland and the facts are all over the place. He didn't get a penny.
GIULIANI: They filed joint tax returns --
CUOMO: It was a campaign contribution.
GIULIANI: Of $675,000 --
CUOMO: He gave similar amounts to other candidates.
GIULIANI: Wait, wait. Let's get the facts straight.
CUOMO: Yes, let's.
GIULIANI: Even the head of the Washington office --
CUOMO: Not when she got the money.
GIULIANI: Wait a second. Under investigation of the time was a person named McAuliffe for illegal campaign contributions. An investigation --
CUOMO: Hold on, hold on a second.
GIULIANI: She should --
CUOMO: That's different. Then take up your beef with the FBI director's wife. Not with Terry McAuliffe.
GIULIANI: That's the last guy you should put --
CUOMO: Hold on a second. Hold on. I'm saying let's keep it straight. You started by saying McAuliffe essentially was paying off the FBI guy. He gave a campaign contribution to his wife and it happened before the FBI guy was within 1,000 miles of the of the Hillary Clinton e-mail investigation.
GIULIANI: The FBI guy is in -- his wife is in McAuliffe's pocket, one could argue. McAuliffe gets promoted -- the guy gets promoted from head of the office, he never should have gotten in the first place because McAuliffe was under investigation in that office. That campaign contribution straight conflict --
CUOMO: You're not even close to connecting anything yet.
CUOMO: You're not close.
GIULIANI: If I'm under investigation by the FBI --
GIULIANI: And my wife is running for office. CUOMO: Right.
GIULIANI: The guy running the investigation gives a $675,000 contribution to my wife, that is a conflict of interest.
CUOMO: Yes, but you, first of all --
CUOMO: Here's what happened.
GIULIANI: You guys are so darn unfair to Trump.
CUOMO: Let's --
GIULIANI: I swear to god.
CUOMO: Rudy, you --
GIULIANI: If that happened to a Democrat --
CUOMO: -- because you don't like the facts.
GIULIANI: If Donald did a tenth of that --
CUOMO: You're ago that McAuliffe interfered in the investigation by giving this guy money --
GIULIANI: I'm saying he created a massive appearance of impropriety.
CUOMO: Only in your reckoning because you got the timing all wrong, or you're suggesting --
GIULIANI: I don't have the timing wrong.
CUOMO: They guy wasn't even in the job at the time that he donated to his wife. When McAuliffe gave the money --
GIULIANI: And then he got promoted.
CUOMO: To the FBI guy's wife -- yes.
GIULIANI: Once they had it.
CUOMO: So you think that -- you think that McAuliffe had the foresight --
GIULIANI: This is the guy --
CUOMO: -- to pay off a wife of a guy who was going to get promoted some months later --
GIULIANI: Number one --
CUOMO: When they weren't even looking at Hillary Clinton yet.
GIULIANI: He paid off a guy who was handling his investigation --
CUOMO: This is --
GIULIANI: Even worse. The Washington field office is investigating McAuliffe for illegal campaign contributions in falsifying foreign donors.
CUOMO: That has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton. Zero.
GIULIANI: But it has to do with the fact that the payment was a conflict of interest.
CUOMO: But you said it out this way Rudy --
GIULIANI: Wait, wait, wait, let me finish.
CUOMO: -- because McAuliffe paid off the FBI, and that's not what happened.
GIULIANI: Give me the courtesy of finishing --
CUOMO: Go ahead, but I have to clarify --
GIULIANI: I'm the head of the FBI and I'm going to select my number three guy and my number two guy for this investigation. I go select a guy who got a $675,000 contribution.
CUOMO: He didn't get it. His wife got it.
GIULIANI: For his wife, for his wife to run that investigation. And I don't think that's --
CUOMO: And it was over several months.
GIULIANI: Several months.
CUOMO: That's how campaigns work.
GIULIANI: The last --
CUOMO: It was a campaign.
GIULIANI: There are 14,000 FBI agents. You go pick the guy that got $675,000 --
CUOMO: Rudy, for this to have to be true -- by the way, this is the way we talk. It's not me cutting you off. You're giving a fact I'm trying to counter that fact --
GIULIANI: That's a massive fact --
CUOMO: Right, but what I'm saying you've got the timing wrong. This all happened --
GIULIANI: The timing is not wrong. The timing is right on target.
CUOMO: When did she get the money?
GIULIANI: He got the -- she got the money in three stages.
GIULIANI: Actually, about 60 percent of it after he was in the New York -- in the Washington office.
CUOMO: No. But he had nothing to do with this case.
GIULIANI: Yes he did.
CUOMO: No when he got the money -- when she got the money --
GIULIANI: It doesn't matter.
CUOMO: It has to matter. For you to be right McAuliffe -- see I would never roll my eyes at you by the way -- McAuliffe would have had to know that this guy was going be involved in this Hillary case.
GIULIANI: You're investigating me. I get a $675,000 contribution for your wife. You should have recused yourself for the case if you're an honorable --
CUOMO: He went and got an ethics opinion about what to do and what not to do from the FBI.
GIULIANI: Bull. Ethics opinion is complete bull.
CUOMO: You're saying he didn't do it? You're saying he didn't do it?
GIULIANI: You can't get a $675,000 contribution and investigate the guy. Now the guy is a perfect pigeon.
CUOMO: But he wasn't investigating McAuliffe.
GIULIANI: Of all the FBI agents you pick you pick that guy.
CUOMO: It sounds like a conspiracy.
Now, that isn't the only thing. Then the president meets with the attorney general five days before the interview over the fourth of July. Then we have the interview over the Fourth of July weekend, and the report is written three days later. I've written a lot of those reports. That report didn't get written in three days. That report was written two weeks before. Then I can take that report, Chris, I can rip that report apart.
She's asked the following question. Do you know what "c" means on a sensitive government document? She says no. I thought it was in alphabetical order. Here's the next question, did you see an "a," did you see a "b," did you see an "e" or an "f"? No such question. FBI lay down interview.
Number two, she says I can't remember my exit interview from the FBI because I lost my memory. My question as an investigator immediately is, show me the doctor's record. I hear within the FBI they asked to see the doctor's records and they were told they can't see them. I'm not going to take the witness's word --
CUOMO: You're also not going to indict her on that basis either.
GIULIANI: I'm not going to make a decision before I see the records.
CUOMO: You can criticize the investigation but this McAuliffe stuff is farfetched at --
GIULIANI: No it is not far touched --
CUOMO: It's conspiratorial in the main.
GIULIANI: It's not --
CUOMO: The timing is wrong Rudy.
GIULIANI: Comey should not have selected the number three, number two guy whose wife had gotten $675,000 for the guy who used to sell the Lincoln bedroom to the Clintons.
CUOMO: But the timing doesn't match up. People can look it up for themselves. Whose on the three dollar bill?
GIULIANI: McAuliffe, the guy was selling the Lincoln bedroom.
CUOMO: Look, I'm just saying you guys throw out there -- you throw out there --
GIULIANI: I'm not throwing out there. Those are facts.
CUOMO: No, no, no. The timing is a fact also. And she got campaign contributions before he was ever in a position --
GIULIANI: She's sitting there --
CUOMO: -- the e-mail investigation.
GIULIANI: She is indebted to McAuliffe for one-third to half of the funds --
CUOMO: I'm just saying I don't see how you connect that money to what that guy did in the investigation when he wasn't even there. And then yesterday you want to talk about things that are obvious and deceptive, your man Trump goes out brings out employees and says, look how my employees who love me by the way are suffering under Obamacare. None is on Obamacare.
GIULIANI: That I don't know about.
CUOMO: Now you do.
That means he either doesn't know what Obamacare is or he doesn't know what's going on in his own business. Is that relevant?
GIULIANI: I don't know the answer to whether they were on Obamacare --
CUOMO: They're not. They're not.
GIULIANI: Or are they tangentially suffering --
CUOMO: The guy who runs his business said 99 percent get private insurance.
GIULIANI: The issue whether he got that right or wrong, and I know the answer to it is, Obamacare is a massive, crazy disaster according to Bill Clinton. It is bankrupt. It's going bankrupt. The rates are going up from 25 percent to as much as 86 percent. And the deductibles are $5,000 to $6,000, who uses up $5,000 to $6,000 in deductibles.
CUOMO: Here's the problem --
GIULIANI: Obamacare is Obama fraud.
CUOMO: Obamacare has a lot of problems.
GIULIANI: You can keep your doctor. You can keep your insurance. Lie, lie --
CUOMO: Obamacare has problems.
GIULIANI: It's going to save you money. Big lie.
CUOMO: Obamacare has problems. OK? Everybody knew it was going to have problems.
GIULIANI: Minnesota's governor say unaffordable care act. Democrat.
CUOMO: There are a lot of problems. The GOP wouldn't work to fix any of them. This is political.
GIULIANI: They wouldn't negotiate with the GOP. They wouldn't even negotiate tort reform with the GOP.
CUOMO: And you know what? And as a result because the Democrats forced this down the Republicans' throat, the ACA, they decided to punish them. And they won't work with the Democrats to fix any of the problems that they could fix.
GIULIANI: Oh, that's a bunch of nonsense. They created it themselves. They cut out bipartisan support.
CUOMO: I know.
GIULIANI: They pushed it through.
CUOMO: I said they passed it without the GOP. I said that.
GIULIANI: But they wouldn't accept any compromises.
CUOMO: Since then they refuse to work on it. All the Republicans --
GIULIANI: -- tort reform.
CUOMO: -- hold hearings to throw it out.
GIULIANI: Chris, Ryan offered tort reform. He was told trial lawyers --
CUOMO: That has nothing to do with this.
GIULIANI: Of course, tort reform has something to do with it. You want to fix the health insurance, I had to fix the health insurance. You change the tax deduction. You give it to people individually.
You let people buy it in 50 markets. And the massive market in insurance will bring the price down. The way the price applies to --
CUOMO: Only way you bring it down as you know is by --
GIULIANI: -- by taking over.
CUOMO: You have to lock down the providers. You have to find the holes where they run through it and you have to fix it. The government won't do it.
GIULIANI: Locking people down causes monopolies which drive prices up. Large markets break up monopolies and bring prices down.
CUOMO: You guys are talking about the ACA like it is an epidemic in this country and you are suggesting that it is a majority problem when you know that the people who are affected by these subsidies -- by these raises at the end of the day in the individual market are very small fraction of the people looking for health care in this country.
Not that it doesn't have to be fixed. Not that it's not a problem. But you make it sound like it's half the country you're dealing with.
GIULIANI: No, I don't. In fact you didn't even cover all the people in the country which I thought was ridiculous. If he's going to cover the situation, cover the situation. He's causing a massive problem --
CUOMO: You've got more people covered by insurance in this country now than ever before.
GIULIANI: Fifty-three percent, 54 percent of the people, 53 percent, 54 percent of the people who pay taxes are paying for it. We're paying the overage. We're paying the surplus.
Plus, you know what these deductibles are? $4,000, $5,000, $6,000. You know how sick you have to be. When is the last time you used $4,000 or $5,000 in health insurance for yourself.
CUOMO: God forbid. I don't want to have to use it.
GIULIANI: It's sucker game.
CUOMO: It's not a sucker game. It's that this system is not working because --
GIULIANI: Because Obama --
CUOMO: You don't have anybody trying to make it better is what I'm saying.
GIULIANI: It's intellectually dishonest to blame Obamacare on the Republicans.
CUOMO: No, no, I'm not doing that.
GIULIANI: When Obamacare was doing well, Hillary went around saying, it's really Hillary care.
CUOMO: But I'm not doing that. I think this is a problem with this dialogue --
GIULIANI: This is a Democratic program, 100 percent.
CUOMO: You have not heard me blame the Republicans --
GIULIANI: Yes, you did.
CUOMO: For Obamacare.
CUOMO: You heard me say that the Democrats forced the ACA down the throats of the GOP, did not work with them. They rushed it through. That's the only way they thought they'd get through --
GIULIANI: Compromise --
CUOMO: But I'm saying since then the GOP has said we're not working on this at all. We're not fixing any of this. We're getting rid of it.
GIULIANI: It's a disaster.
CUOMO: The problem is, I got to tell you we scrubbed Trump's plan on what this repeal and replace is, he doesn't have better.
GIULIANI: There is a replacement --
CUOMO: You can replace anything any way you want but he doesn't have a plan that course all these people and makes it cheaper.
GIULIANI: I believe in large markets. Bring prices down are large markets. Localizing it to one state, saying I can only buy insurance in New York, it's a monopoly --
CUOMO: They're trying to expand now you got a lot of these states, they won't do that --
GIULIANI: Because you need comprehensive program that allows me to buy at any state that I want to buy.
CUOMO: You're going to take Medicaid away from the states?
GIULIANI: No, Medicaid is Medicaid. It goes to poor people.
GIULIANI: Medicaid should be bloc granted. They should be able to handle it. The governors should be able to handle it --
CUOMO: And when they don't expand you end up-
GIULIANI: We're not even talking about insurance for the poorest people. They have Medicaid. They're untouched. We're talking about people in the middle category --
CUOMO: And more of them are covered now than ever before.
GIULIANI: Yes. For numbers that are ridiculous. And numbers next year that would be more ridiculous --
CUOMO: Which you could fix.
GIULIANI: Not a good fix --
CUOMO: I'm saying you could fix.
GIULIANI: You could not fix it. You couldn't fix it unless you fix the whole market.
CUOMO: Another thing, while I have you here. The polls are --
GIULIANI: And you have to change the tax deduction. Critical -- $
CUOMO: That's another fix that could be made.
GIULIANI: That -- well, they don't want to do it.
CUOMO: The Republicans don't want to do it.
GIULIANI: The Republicans are in favor of it. I was in favor with it on when I ran in '08 --
CUOMO: No, I'm saying they won't work on --
GIULIANI: Democrats will not negotiate on the basic theory of Obamacare, which is locking in the monopoly in one state. If you do that, prices will skyrocket.
CUOMO: The polls are rigged.
GIULIANI: The way they put it, skies the limit.
CUOMO: The polls are rigged. That's what we're hearing right now. The polls are rigged. You say they over weighted Democrats -- not true.
GIULIANI: The polls are rigged.
CUOMO: Yes, polls are rigged. Don't believe them. Donald Trump says they're only asking Democrats. It's not true. You said the same thing.
GIULIANI: I don't know. I haven't looked at the polls. I see him up 3 percent in Florida. Maybe that's rigged. I don't know. I see him down three points --
CUOMO: First of all, none of these polls were rigged when Trump was up. When he would come on this show, all he talked about was polls.
GIULIANI: I see polls all over the place.
CUOMO: All he'd talk about were the polls. Now they're all rigged.
GIULIANI: I see the most accurate polls daily. Most accurate he's up by two points.
CUOMO: First of all, ABC's poll was more accurate than IBD in the last election. They've got Clinton up 12 right now.
GIULIANI: It's my information that the last three elections are --
CUOMO: It's wrong. There's a lot of wrong B.S. going on in this race. That's why I'm having you here.
By the way, IBD has Clinton up one right now.
GIULIANI: OK, she's up one right now. One point is nothing.
CUOMO: No, no, no. We know that very well.
GIULIANI: Anything within three or four points the election could go either way.
CUOMO: -- in this election.
Investment Business Daily, the best poll that's why I'm up in it. Now Clinton is up. Is it still the best poll?
GIULIANI: Sure I guess. If it is or it isn't, you're telling me it isn't.
CUOMO: Over the last three elections. ABC beat it in the last race.
GIULIANI: If you tell me he's down by one point in that poll, I say -- CUOMO: And he says -- you know that the way it works in polls is
let's say you've got 35 percent Democrats and 29 percent Republicans --
GIULIANI: They can come out any way I want --
CUOMO: What they do -- that's why it called a science they take that 35 and wind up blending it down so it's equal and impacted to 29 --
GIULIANI: You're talking to a guy who on Election Day in 1993 was down by 6 percent in the exit polls and won by 3.
CUOMO: That's about turnout.
GIULIANI: That --
CUOMO: That's about turnout --
GIULIANI: -- I won by three points.
CUOMO: Of course --
CUOMO: He's saying they're rigged.
GIULIANI: I look at them, I find much more effective for example, this weekend I'm going to go to Pennsylvania.
GIULIANI: I'm going to go to the es around Pennsylvania. I will find out a lot better by campaigning there whether there's a chance to crack through in Pennsylvania --
CUOMO: But you don't say it's rigged, right? He keeps saying it's rigged.
GIULIANI: Look, what I --
CUOMO: You understand how that undermines confidence in the system? He won't accept the outcome of the election.
GIULIANI: When I hear rigged did
CUOMO: That's rigged --
GIULIANI: He's talking about the media --
CUOMO: The same media covered him more than anybody else and helped his rise --
GIULIANI: But a tremendous amount of unfair coverage. A tremendous amount of -- CUOMO: Because of what comes out of his mouth, Rudy. Not because of
what they make up.
GIULIANI: And there's a lot of stuff about her that isn't caricatured, that isn't played the same way --
CUOMO: What have we not covered about Clinton? She's been covered for 20 years.
GIULIANI: If he said some things he wanted to make fun of she committed some crimes that are away.
CUOMO: FBI looked at them and said no crime that can be prosecuted.
GIULIANI: The FBI made a colossal mistake that is an embarrassment to the FBI. She destroyed 33,000 e-mails. She had somebody with a hammer hammering 13 cell ones. Don't tell me that's not a criminal act, Chris.
CUOMO: It's not a criminal act.
GIULIANI: Or I have to give up my law license.
CUOMO: It's not --
GIULIANI: She lied --
CUOMO: It's not necessarily a criminal act you know that --
GIULIANI: She didn't know that a "C" on a government document meant confidential she shouldn't have been secretary of state. She knew what it means.
CUOMO: Fair criticism.
GIULIANI: She's lying.
CUOMO: It's not a crime.
GIULIANI: To tell the FBI that you don't know what a "c" means confidential when you do is a lie.
CUOMO: Now you're assuming that she knew --
GIULIANI: Well, of course, she knew.
CUOMO: She says she didn't know.
GIULIANI: How could she not know? How could she not know? When she gives the explanation I thought it was an alphabetical order.
I cross-examine her and say to her, Hillary here's the document. Show me the "A." Show me the "B." Show me the "F."
CUOMO: That's what would happen at trial. It never happened at trial.
GIULIANI: Of course they never indicted her. But they should have.
CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani. I appreciate you coming on to make the case for Donald Trump.
GIULIANI: Thank you.
CUOMO: Even though you get me in trouble -- you saying you interrupt me you don't let me finish. That's all I'm going to hear from my mother right now. Thank you very much for that, Rudy. I appreciate it.