Fireworks: Giuliani vs. Michael Eric Dyson: "White Police Officers Won't Be There If You Weren't Killing Each Other 70% Of The Time"

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Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani and Georgetown professor Michael Eric Dyson had a heated argument on Ferugson on Sunday's broadcast of NBC's Meet the Press. Giuliani confronted Dyson over the fact that blacks don't have mass protests when blacks kill other blacks.

"But the fact is, I find it very disappointing that you're not discussing the fact that 93% of blacks in America are killed by other blacks," Giuliani said to Dyson.

"We're talking about the exception here," Giuliani said of Ferguson.

"Black people who kill black people go to jail. White people who are policemen who kill black people do not go to jail. If a jury can indict a ham sandwich, why is it taking so long?" Dyson said.

"What about the poor black child that is killed by another black child? Why aren't you protesting that?" Giuliani asked.

"Those people go to jail. I do protest it. I'm a minister. They go to jail," Dyson replied.

"So why don't cut it down so so many white police officers don't have to be in black areas?" Giuliani inquired.

"White police officers won't be there if you weren't killing each other 70% of the time," Giuliani said.

"This is a defense mechanism of white supremacy at work in your mind, sir," Dyson shot back at the end of the argument.

CHUCK TODD, MEET THE PRESS: Now let's talk about the larger issue here that I think other communities may need to confront. Mayor Giuliani, I want to show you this graphic of the disproportionality of white police forces basically not looking like the communities that they serve. I highlighted six here of the most dramatic.

This was a Washington Post analysis of census data. Where basically the proportion of white police officers was much higher than the proportion of the white population. Miami Gardens, Florida, right outside the city of Miami, we see there El Paso, Texas, Compton, Gary, Indiana, Newark, Detroit. I mean, all of those place could become future Fergusons. How do you make a police force that looks like the community they serve?

RUDY GIULIANI: Well, I mean, starting with Mayor Koch, Mayor Dinkins, myself, Mayor Bloomberg, and now Mayor de Blasio, we've tried very hard to make the police force in New York City as proportionate as we possibly can. We go out of our way to do that. I think we do a pretty good job. Not a perfect job. But the reality is--

CHUCK TODD: You're not on this list, so that's a good thing.

RUDY GIULIANI: Right. I was glad to see that we weren't, by the way. But the fact is, I find it very disappointing that you're not discussing the fact that 93% of blacks in America are killed by other blacks. We're talking about the exception here.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Well, look. First of all--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: --it's about a distrust issue.

RUDY GIULIANI: We are talking about the significant exception. 93% of blacks are killed by other blacks.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Let me reply to that.

RUDY GIULIANI: I would like to see attention paid to that that you are paying to this and the solutions to that.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: He's taking up in time. Can I say this, first of all, no black people who commit crimes against other black people go to jail [sic]. Number two, they are not sworn by the police department as a agent of the state to uphold the law. So in both cases, that's a false equivalency that the mayor has drawn, which is exacerbated tensions that are deeply imbedded in American culture.

(OVERTALK)

RUDY GIULIANI: It's the reason that--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Black people who kill black people go to jail. White people who are policemen who kill black people do not go to jail. If a jury can indict a ham sandwich, why is it taking so long?

(OVERTALK)

RUDY GIULIANI: --it’s hardly insignificant.

CHUCK TODD: Mr. Mayor, let me ask you--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: It's the trust issue. It's a trust issue.

RUDY GIULIANI: It's hardly insignificant.

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: I didn't say it was insignificant. I said it was--

(OVERTALK)

RUDY GIULIANI: It is the reason--

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Your false equivalency, sir.

RUDY GIULIANI: It is the reason for the heavy police presence in the black community.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Not at all.

RUDY GIULIANI: 93%.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: The police presence cannot make it--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: --those who are criminals and those who call the police.

RUDY GIULIANI: Let me--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: --the criminals.

RUDY GIULIANI: What about the poor black child that is killed by another black child? Why aren't you protesting that?

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Those people go to jail. I do protest it. I'm a minister. They go to jail. Why don't you talk about the way in which white policemen --

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: --undercut the ability of--

(OVERTALK)

RUDY GIULIANI: So why don't cut it down so so many white police officers don't have to be in black areas?

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: They don't have to be. It's a matter of the effect of the state occupying those forces, sir.

RUDY GIULIANI: How about 70%-75% of the crime in my city--

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: How about your attitude reinforces--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: --problematic perspectives that prevails in a culture--

CHUCK TODD: I think this is a debate--

RUDY GIULIANI: So how about you reduce crime?

CHUCK TODD: This is a debate--

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: When I become mayor, I’ll do that--

(OVERTALK)

RUDY GIULIANI: White police officers won't be there if you weren't killing each other 70% of the time.

(OVERTALK)

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: This is a defense mechanism of white supremacy at work in your mind, sir.

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