PAUL KRUGMAN: To get this through, it had to be designed to something that largely left people who had good insurance uninfected. So if you had insurance, not exactly true that you could keep it. But by and large, you're able to keep what you had. it's implemented at the state level. Kentucky has this program and it works great and lots of people don't know that it's Obamacare. And so on down the line. And then, on top of that, I guess you could say that the administration, Obama himself, has never been that good at laying out the case of why this is a good idea and how it works. But I'm not sure that would have made much difference.
CHRIS HAYES: Yeah, I think there's a key point here we think about what this could have been an Obamacare election in some ways. there's folks like myself that think Democrats could be even more aggressive. but your point is key here. the policy design is to design something as unintrusive as possible which then makes it a more difficult thing to run on when you've actually designed the thing that's not going to muck with more people's lives than is absolutely necessary.
PAUL KRUGMAN: Yeah, but that's the way it had to be, all right? If you're going to say okay, we're going to take away your health insurance and replace it with Medicare for all. You know, people wouldn't have believed it. It wouldn't have passed Congress. You had to get something that was incremental and yet it's a huge thing it means probably in the end, 30 million people who would not have had health insurance will have it and everyone else will have the assurance that they can get it if they would lose their job.