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Karl Rove & Frank Luntz on "Hannity & Colmes"

Hannity & Colmes

HANNITY: Welcome to HANNITY & COLMES. We get right to our top story tonight. The final debate is over and most observers felt today that Hillary Clinton did not do enough to change the dynamic in last night's debate. Translation, the Clintons could be through. Meanwhile, on the campaign trail today, Barack Obama started acting like the nominee, getting into a war of words with Senator John McCain. We'll play you that tape in just a few minutes.

And we have complete coverage of the presidential race tonight, including another Frank Luntz focus group in a few minutes. But we start tonight with the man they call the architect; Fox News contributor -- he will be with us Tuesday night for Super Tuesday Two. Karl Rove is back with us. Karl, welcome aboard.

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Great to see you.

HANNITY: Welcome to HANNITY & COLMES. We get right to our top story tonight. The final debate is over and most observers felt today that Hillary Clinton did not do enough to change the dynamic in last night's debate. Translation, the Clintons could be through. Meanwhile, on the campaign trail today, Barack Obama started acting like the nominee, getting into a war of words with Senator John McCain. We'll play you that tape in just a few minutes.

And we have complete coverage of the presidential race tonight, including another Frank Luntz focus group in a few minutes. But we start tonight with the man they call the architect; Fox News contributor -- he will be with us Tuesday night for Super Tuesday Two. Karl Rove is back with us. Karl, welcome aboard.

KARL ROVE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Great to see you.

HANNITY: We're going to get into this debate later in the program. I noticed on Atlantic.com that -- about the use of Barack Obama's middle name. You have warned strongly against using it, saying that the use of that full name would perpetuate the notion that Republicans are bigoted and would hurt the party. Can you explain that?

ROVE: I think it is unnecessary. If people use it in order to imply something about Obama that is simply not true. It used to indicate either that he is a Muslim or that he is somehow tied in with Mid-Eastern terrorists, neither of which is true. I think it is a diversion, and gives him an easy chance to be a victim, and gives the media a very easy chance to beat up on Republicans. We're better off not doing it.

HANNITY: We will have the debate fully later on in the program. But I wanted to get you on record because I noticed that you discussed that. We have a big primary coming up on Tuesday. Bill Clinton even admits that Texas, in particular, is a must-win for Hillary. Most observers think she has to win Texas and Ohio. You know Texas better than anybody. As you analyze her position -- She has lost 24 contests to 11. She's losing the popular vote by a million votes. Can she come back against Barack?

ROVE: She could. I am not sure she will. If I were betting today, I would suggest that she probably will win Ohio. She might win Texas narrowly. Even if she wins Texas narrowly, the delegate rules are set up in such a way she is likely to get a minority of the delegates, and that would not bode well for the outcome of the contest.

HANNITY: Texas Republicans and independents have an opportunity to cross over and they can vote in the Democratic contest. First they have a primary and then at 7:00, just to remind our audience, they also -- people that voted in the primary can caucus. You call it the Texas Two-Step. There are Republicans that think, maybe it's better that we get involved in this and maybe we help save Hillary Clinton's career and campaign here, and vote for Hillary, with the thinking that she is the weaker candidate. What do you think?

ROVE: I think some will cross over, but not a lot. In Texas, we don't have party registration. You're designated a party member by the primary you participate in. So you can go into the Republican primary or the Democratic primary, doesn't matter, pick one and go vote. I think there is likely to be only a small number of Republicans who enter into the Democratic caucus or Democratic primary.

HANNITY: Let me ask you -- First of all, there's an "L.A. Times" and Bloomberg poll out that shows that John McCain would beat either Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. He is doing pretty well in the polls at this early stage. Finally, in spite of all the fainting and Obama-mania that's going on out there, seems to be scrutiny he has not received before. It has been revealed that his church gave a prominent award to Louis Farrakhan, that he had a meeting with this guy in the Weather underground that admits to bombing a police headquarters and our Pentagon, and that his own spokesman says has a friendly relationship, just yesterday.

And then we had this exchange last night in the debate. Let's roll the tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I have been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments. I think they are unacceptable and reprehensible. I did not solicit this support. He expressed pride in an African-American who seems to be bringing the country together. I obviously can't censure him. But it is not support that I sought and we are not doing anything, I assure you, formally or informally with Minister Farrakhan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: When you add that to the comments of his wife about the first time in my life, I am proud to be an American, the use of the word white oppressor in her thesis. Do you think the people are going to respond negatively to all of this?

ROVE: Well, what I thought was interesting about his comments about Farrakhan was how narrow he made them. His comment was he disagreed with Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments. Farrakhan's made a lot more comments besides his very virulent anti-Semitic comments. He has made very racist comments about whites and about the black-white relationships in the United States. And I frankly think he ought to be dismissive of Farrakhan in his totality, not simply --

ALAN COLMES, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Actually, Karl, he has. In fact, welcome back to our show. Karl, it's Alan. Thank you for being here tonight. Not just the debate last night, but speaking to a group of Jewish leaders in Cleveland last week, he said, I have been a consistent denunciator of Louis Farrakhan. Nobody challenges that. And that the award given for his, for example, on behalf of ex-offenders, unrelated to his controversial statements. He talked about his minister doing things with the community, but that he personally repudiated him and could not control, he said last night at the debate, who endorses him. He can't censure endorsements. I don't know what more he has to say to get people off his back about Louis Farrakhan.

ROVE: Look, Alan, let me tell you, he could be that strong in his comments last night. Last night's comments were weak. He should have said, I disavow Minister Farrakhan. I do not believe that he represents my views and the views of our country as we want to have it. He is anti- Semitic. He is racist. His comments run down America. His identification with dictators around the world. His comments that belittle our country and its values are simply reprehensible, and I disassociate myself with them in their totality. Instead, it was a very narrow, I don't like his anti-Semitic comments. There's more bad things about Minister Farrakhan. That is bad enough, but there is a heck of a lot more bad about Minister Farrakhan besides that.

COLMES: That could be true. I think you are ignoring so much of what he said, not just last night, but also what he said to a Jews group last week. He went on to say --

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: I don't know what more he has to say without being beaten up.

ROVE: Alan, I am just asking for consistency. If he was that tough last week, he should have been that tough last night. And he wasn't. Look, with all due respect, he is a very left-wing Democrat. He came out of a very radical background in organizing. His record in the Senate is the most liberal, according to the "National Journal." He has been a conventional far-left Democrat. And we ought to recognize that.

As a result, he has these associations and these people he has been comfortable being with who are not in mainstream America. Look, after 9/11, when he said true patriotism did not consist of wearing a lapel pin - - an American flag lapel pin on your lapel, but instead speaking out on the issues, he was basically, with the back of his hand, being very dismissive to millions of Americans who thought it was a patriotic act to put a flag pin on their lapel.

COLMES: Does he lack patriotism because he does not wear a lapel pan? Is he basically saying, patriotism isn't about a pin? That is his point of view.

ROVE: Alan, I didn't say that. What he said was that people -- he was implicating that people who did wear a flag on the lapel were not true patriots. My point is not -- in America, you get to decide whether you want to wear a flag lapel pin or not. What he did though was say, it was true patriotism to speak out on the issue, not to wear a flag lapel pen. He was the one questioning the patriotism of people with flags on their lapels.

COLMES: I didn't get that from what he said. What I got --

ROVE: Read the statement carefully. He said, true patriotism -- quote, true patriotism consisted of speaking out on the issues, not wearing a flag lapel pin.

COLMES: He wasn't questioning people who wore it. He was questioning the war.

ROVE: No, he was questioning the patriotism of those who did put a flag on their lapel. Admit it. I'm not questioning his patriotism. But he certainly questioned the patriotism of millions of people who felt the simple gesture of putting the flag on their lapel was a patriotic act, and it was.

COLMES: We'll come right back with more with Karl Rove after the break. Still to come tonight, does the media have its darling when it comes to a presidential candidate? Hillary Clinton seems to think so and has plenty to say about that, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am told that Senator Obama made the statement that if al Qaeda came back to Iraq after he withdraws -- after the American troops are withdrawn, then he would send military troops back if al Qaeda established a base in Iraq. I have some news; al Qaeda is in Iraq.

OBAMA: I have some news for John McCain. And that is that there was no such thing as al Qaeda in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain decided to invade Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: That was Barack Obama and John McCain gearing for what many are expecting to be a general election dog fight. We now continue with former Bush adviser Karl Rove. Does Obama not have a point? Iraq is now invaded by al Qaeda because the borders were porous. We didn't protect the borders when we went in there. And the al Qaeda in Iraq is not the same that was in Afghanistan, but re-branded itself that way to align itself with that al Qaeda?

ROVE: Alan, you are wrong. Al Qaeda in Iraq was organized by Zarqawi, one of the top deputies of Osama bin Laden, who was sent from Afghanistan in the aftermath of the fall of the Taliban to Iraq. Al Qaeda in Iraq pledges its allegiance to Osama bin Laden and Zawahiri his number two. And the operational control, day to day, is in Iraq, but the strategic control and the big decisions are by their top leadership.

Al Qaeda is in Iraq. They came there because they understand the importance of defeating the west in Iraq and stopping the formation of a Democratic Iraq that would be an ally in the war on terror.

COLMES: It has been reported that they took that name because they wanted the association. But also, how did they get in there? Did we not do a good enough job protecting the borders to allow al Qaeda to invade or get into the country after we went and did an occupation?

ROVE: It has very porous borders. As you know, at least two of the borders with Syria and Iran are borders with enemies, or adversaries of the United States, who are encouraging the threat to the United States in Iraq. Now you can be critical of the ability of the Iraqis and the Americans and our coalition partners to secure the border, but that adds to the necessity of us defeating al Qaeda in Iraq, not add to the argument that Senator Obama was making, which was, as long as al Qaeda is there, get out.

Incidentally, I want to make one political point about this, not just a policy point about this. There is a deficit emerging here, a deficit for Obama. We have heard recently about the Obama-kins, the Republicans for Obama. And I would like to point out the McCain-a-crats, the Democrats who are for McCain, outnumber the Republicans for Obama by almost a two to one margin.

Here are the three most recent polls. As you can see, in the Fox poll, by a margin of 79 to 12, Republicans support McCain. In the Gallup, 87 to nine they support McCain over Obama. And then in "LA Times" poll, 79 to 12. Obama does not have similar levels of support among Democrats. He is leading, for example, against McCain in the Fox poll by 74-19, in Gallup 79-17 and in the "L.A. Times" by 75 points.

COLMES: As long as you are bringing that up, let me just ask you, McCain said the other day, he has to defend the war and the Bush policies to get elected. How is that going to sit with the American people who pretty much don't agree with that?

ROVE: The question is do the American people want to win or do they want to lose? That will end up being the start question here. We are succeeding with the surge, a surge that was opposed by Senator Obama and supported by Senator McCain. And at the end of the day, the question the American people are going to have to answer is: do we want to stay and fight and win and create an ally in the war on terror, or do we want to leave and run the risk of seeing the Middle East plunge into a conflict that would be absolutely dreadful?

That is a big question. This election is not going to be about little small things. It's going to be about big things. That's one of the biggest.

HANNITY: Karl, I want to stay on what you are showing there on your blackboard just for a second, because this is really important. And by the way, I love the blackboard, by the way. We learned through the Hillary campaign how not to run against Barack Obama. That is throw the kitchen sink at him and the constant attacking of him. It raises the question, with your background and your experience, if you could advise Senator McCain on how to run this campaign and defeat Barack Obama, what would you advise him? How should he run the campaign?

ROVE: First of all, he, Senator McCain, needs to introduce himself to the American people, because we don't know much about him, except if you live in Iowa, New Hampshire or South Carolina. So he needs to introduce himself on a personal level here to the American people.

Second of all, he needs to stay strong in his defense of the Iraq war and the necessity for victory. And third, he needs to engage on domestic issues in a powerful and persuasive way, earlier rather than later.

With regard to Senator Obama, I think he has to treat Senator Obama's words with great seriousness, and he has to start by holding him to account for the gap between his words and the reality. Senator Obama, for example, talks about the need for -- to bring Republicans and Democrats together. And yet he has done nothing since he arrived in the United States Senate to do so. He has voted on the short end -- when Republicans and Democrats have came together, one of the Democrats who didn't come together was Obama.

And the second thing is, remember last Tuesday in Wisconsin, he said - - or two weeks ago now, 10 days ago. He said that there are important issues facing America, like creating jobs, and fixing our schools, and creating a stronger health care system that required leadership and energy. Well, he had three years in the United States Senate and there is no great issue facing America that has his fingerprints on it. He has not provided the leadership.

You can't say either of those things about John McCain. He has been a bipartisan leader and he has taken on a lot of very high profile, high- stakes issues in the Congress, won some of them and lost some of them.

HANNITY: We are almost out of time. Do you think this rock star, fainting, I guess, period that he has gone through, do you think that comes to an end shortly? We only have a few seconds?

ROVE: I think so. Look, now he gets real scrutiny. He is no longer up against Hillary Clinton. Look, a lot of this, I think, is the desire of ordinary Democrats not to have Hillary Clinton as their nominee. And I think that's helped him a lot in this enthusiastic burst he has had.

HANNITY: Karl Rove, the architect. We'll see you on a special edition Sunday night in the lead-up to Super Tuesday Two. We look forward to seeing you Sunday night. Thank you, Karl.

Coming up, Hillary Clinton let's loose on the media, claiming preferential treatment towards rival Barack Obama. Has the former first lady been given a fair shake by the press? Kirsten Powers sounds off.

And is it fair to use his middle name? We'll get into that debate, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)










(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Can I just point out that in the last several debates, I seem to get the first question all the time. And I don't mind. I will be happy to field them. But I do find it curious. And if anybody saw "Saturday Night Live," maybe we should ask Barack if he is comfortable and needs another pillow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Awe, now that was Hillary Clinton, taking her best shot at the media. So, is the press really treating her unfairly? Joining us now, Fox News political analyst Kirsten Powers -- is with us.

KIRSTEN POWERS, FOX NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I know you feel for her, Sean.

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: Do think she is treated unfairly?

POWERS: I think she has been treated unfairly for the whole campaign, for the most part, and I think you should feel bad about it. I am sure you noticed last night how Tim Russert was treating her.

HANNITY: He asked her questions.

POWERS: No, he was being very overly aggressive with her in a way that he really wasn't with Barack Obama, and I think a way he has been with her in previous debates. And look at the videos they showed.

HANNITY: He actually tried to get a direct answer to a simply question; do you support illegal immigrants having legal driver's license. When she gave five answers, Tim Russert, questioned her.

POWERS: And when Barack Obama answered the same question the same way the next week, nobody cared.

HANNITY: I cared.

POWERS: There is a different standard and I just thing you have to hold them both to the same standard.

HANNITY: I will concede one point to you, and I do think that this is something that is going to change in the course of this campaign. Barack Obama has not had scrutiny. He has not had any scrutiny in terms of where he plans to take the country, how he will fight the war on terror, how he will develop economic growth and prosperity. More importantly, some of his questionable association and comments. His church gives awards to Louis Farrakhan. This Weather Underground guy, William Ayers (ph) -- we're going to talk about that in a minute.

I think he has issues that he has really not been tested on and we are going to really see if he is a strong competitor.

POWERS: We have talked about these issues before. I don't think the Farrakhan is going to be that much of an issue, as much as you may want to make it an issue. He does not have -- I looked at the website of his church before, and I think -- we always talk about the fact that -- I always hear people coming out and saying the African-American community should do more to deal with the problems in their community and that's what the church does.

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: I have a question. What is wrong with the black value system?

POWERS: I don't have any problem with it.

COLMES: they talk about family.

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: They talk about commitment to family and community. And the reason it is -- there are black churches is because African-Americans, unlike whites, have not had the infrastructure in this country and the organizations --

POWERS: Most churches tend to be somewhat segregated, is the reality. That's not a problem. At the end of the day, people are always coming out and saying, African-Americans need to do something about all the problems in their community, the fact that you have so many single mothers, the fact that you have children growing up without fathers. That's what this church is trying to do.

COLMES: That's what you hear conservatives talk about all the time.

POWERS: That is what they are trying to do. They are trying to address these issues and they know they have problems unique to their community.

COLMES: They are going to try to smear Obama with his church, his pastor. So far it hasn't work. I still get emails, at least three an hour, saying, he is a secret Muslim. We'll talk about his middle name, whether that's appropriate. Even Karl Rove says, don't go there.

This idea that he was a member of boards of certain organizations, and other members happen to have questionable backgrounds, that is somehow Obama's fault? We get into that later tonight was well.

POWERS: I understand that everybody wants to get into all the issues. This is a hard sell with Barack Obama. When you look at him -- He has not run as the black candidate. He has run as Barack Obama. He is --

COLMES: They are going to try to make him into a black candidate.

POWERS: They can try to do it. It's going to be very difficult with him, though, because I just don't think that he -- he is not somebody who has been racially polarizing. He has not a person who has ever said anything that would make us believe that we need to be concerned about that.

COLMES: I honestly think the stuff they are beginning to throw at him now will reflect more, seriously, back upon the people doing the throwing.

POWERS: That is typically what has happened so far and I think you are right.

COLMES: What can Hillary Clinton do at this point?

POWERS: She is in a very tough spot. We have to wait and see what happens in the states that are coming up. I think that if there was a state that was friendly to her, it's certainly Ohio.

COLMES: She has to win Texas, even if she wins by a narrow margin. She still has to get enough super delegates to make it a winnable situation.

And the other side will say, she stole it, look what she did. She played unfair and won ugly. That's what they will see even if she wins it.

POWERS: I don't know about that.

HANNITY: If they seat Michigan and Florida, would you think that fair?

COLMES: I think they need to have some arrangement to have those delegates counted, or there has to be a re-do or something. Thank you, Kirsten, very much for being with us.

Coming up, radio talk show host Bill Cunningham is back to respond to growing criticism over his use of Obama's middle name and a few other things he said, as well, when we get back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)










(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CUNNINGHAM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: At some point in the near future the media, the stooges from the New York Times; CBS, the Clinton Broadcasting System; NBC, the Nobody But Clinton network; the All Bill Clinton channel, ABC; and the Clinton News Network at some point is going to peel the bark off Barack Hussein Obama.

Why don't you talk to his mother and father, recently departed. God bless and God rest their souls. His parents called him Barack Hussein Obama, not me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: All right. Those were the very eloquent comments of radio talk show host Bill Cunningham made yesterday at a McCain rally in Cincinnati and later that night on our program. His use of Obama's middle name has prompted debate about whether its usage was fair game.

With us now, radio talk show host Bill Cunningham and FOX News contributor Bob Beckel.

Bill, I know you're very entertaining as a talk show host and your reaction, as well. That's his real name, of course. Last night, I pointed out you also called him Barack Mohammed Hussein Obama on radio. But -- which you, of course, don't deny.

But let's talk about intent here. Your intent is not simply to honor his parents who called him that, but to suggest that, because his name is Hussein, it has an implication that will not sit well with a certain factor of the population. And that's what it's all about.

CUNNINGHAM: Well, Alan Colmes, let me tell you my intent. Instead of you speculating in the dark, let me give you the facts. Some of the great presidents of American history where Obama wants to be John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Ronald Wilson Reagan, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, one of your heroes. Ronald Wilson -- how about Jefferson Clinton? How about -- how about Hillary Rodham Clinton?

I gave him three proper names, elevating him to almost a presidency. In fact, isn't your middle name Youssef (ph)? Alan Youssef (ph) Colmes?

COLMES: Exactly. Very funny. Hilarious.

CUNNINGHAM: I'm just asking you. I'm honoring him to call him by his name.

COLMES: Alan Samuel Colmes, that's my real name. But the truth is, you're disingenuous to act like you are trying to honor him when you know you're playing on the fears of people who hear the word "Hussein" and don't particularly like the way that sounds.

Bob Beckel, do you want to weigh in on that?

BOB BECKEL, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, believe it or not, I have followed this gentlemen's radio career. He's got a huge audience. And what is everybody so surprised at? I mean, the guy -- if you're going to invite him to go and then stir up a crowd, you do not expect a lecture on the Marquis de Queensbury rules. I mean, this is -- this is not what Mr. Cunningham is about.

I -- look, the fact that these people were surprised gets me -- it's amazing.

Why does Bill use his middle name, Hussein? Are we kidding ourselves? We understand why. But that's OK. That's what he does. I mean, that's his big thing.

COLMES: And why doesn't he use John Sidney McCain? Bill?

BECKEL: I'm talking about it. I'm getting tired of talking about it. This is three days in a row. Come on.

COLMES: But Bill...

CUNNINGHAM: Alan...

COLMES: ... if middle names are so important, why don't you use them for all the candidates? Why just Barack?

CUNNINGHAM: Alan, I used John Sidney McCain III, and no Australians have been angry at all. His middle name is Sidney. What is wrong with the name given to him by his parents?

COLMES: I haven't heard you use it. I haven't heard you use it.

CUNNINGHAM: I used -- I've used John Sidney McCain III. I've used those names. I've used the name.

COLMES: By the way, Bill, what is your middle name? I want to use it from now on.

CUNNINGHAM: My middle name is Daniel.

COLMES: What is it?

CUNNINGHAM: Daniel. William Daniel Cunningham.

COLMES: All right. William Daniel Cunningham. We'll be using that from now on.

CUNNINGHAM: Alan, the bigotry is with people like you who take offense at the proper legal name of a candidate that you want to keep...

COLMES: The issue is -- you're being disingenuous about what you're chosen tactic is.

CUNNINGHAM: No, you're the one, Alan.

COLMES: Don't blame it on me. You are not being straight about what your real angle is and why you're actually doing it.

CUNNINGHAM: Straight as an arrow, because I'm using it to give the man credit for three proper names, like John Fitzgerald Kennedy is not a knock on the Irish.

HANNITY: William Daniel Cunningham, welcome back to the program, sir. You're a great American.

CUNNINGHAM: I am a great American.

HANNITY: Let's go back, though. He made a great point, Bob Beckel. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Richard Milhous Nixon, Ronald Wilson Reagan, William Jefferson Clinton, Hillary Rodham Clinton, George Herbert Walker Bush, George W. Bush.

I mean, you're just making an assumption here, almost all of the presidents, we use their middle names is inaccurate at the name his parents gave him. Why is there this reaction to this?

BECKEL: Well, let me play right along and say, "Gee, you're exactly right."

Now, Sean doesn't have a middle name, I find out.

HANNITY: That's correct.

BECKEL: Just Sean.

HANNITY: And if I did, I'm not telling you.

BECKEL: I have a middle name. Now, Daniel is a nice middle name for Bill. You've got Daniel -- Daniel Boone. I mean, here's a -- you know, here's a famous guy and he's famous.

Look, who are we kidding? I didn't fall for (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'm not falling into this game.

I will say this: does anybody wonder what it would be like to have dinner with Alan Colmes and Bill Cunningham? Does anybody think...

COLMES: It would cost too much money.

BECKEL: It would be...

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: Bill Cunningham, let me ask you a serious question. We just had on the architect, Karl Rove, and Senator McCain denounced your comments, even though he wasn't there when you made them. Even though his staff, you said last night on this program, they asked you to go out and pump up the crowd.

CUNNINGHAM: Joe Deeters (ph) did.

HANNITY: All right. Joe Deeters (ph). Joe Deeters (ph), OK. Now, but here's what Karl Rove said. He said, by using the name "Barack Hussein Obama," that it would perpetuate the notion that Republicans were bigoted and that it would hurt the party. How do you respond to the architect?

CUNNINGHAM: It perpetuates the notion that the accurate name should be used. And that when you're in a state like Ohio, Sean, this is a bare- knuckle battleground state.

We're used to fighting in the pit in Ohio. Maybe in Arizona you don't. Maybe in New York you don't, because New York is certainly a blue state. Arizona is a red state. But in Ohio we're used to fighting with knives and guns for elections.

HANNITY: Bill -- Bill...

CUNNINGHAM: And so here you got McCain coming here, and he wants to play by the -- by the pussycat rules that don't work in Ohio.

HANNITY: Before -- before we get -- before we get Bob Beckel back in, you said you're now going to support Hillary Rodham Clinton.

CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely.

HANNITY: Bill Cunningham, I am challenging you right now that you are not going to support, when push comes to shove -- I will bet you a dinner at your restaurant, that you are not -- Willie's, that you are not going to pull the lever for Hillary Rodham Clinton. And I'll bet you any amount of money you want to bet right here.

CUNNINGHAM: Can I have 20 seconds to respond?

HANNITY: Yes.

CUNNINGHAM: Here's the deal. In 1976 if Ford became the president, Reagan never would have happened. I say now a Clinton or an Obama will usher in 20 years of Reagan conservatism.

HANNITY: Well, so that means -- wait a minute. So that means -- wait, but this means that Iraq gets turned over to al Qaeda and Ahmadinejad because both are -- wait, wait. Because both are going to retreat. This means you may have, at the end of that four-year period, nationalized healthcare, higher taxes, open borders.

Bill Cunningham, are you ready to vote for a president that supports views that are the antithesis of yours?

CUNNINGHAM: My friend Sean, short-term pain, pain for long-term gain. We have to go through four years of Jimmy Carter again to get eight to 20 years of Reagan Republicans.

And I say, if this man McCain is elected, we're going to have 20 years to restore the Republican Party.

BECKEL: Let me make this -- let me make this easy on you, OK? We don't really want your vote. OK? Keep your vote.

CUNNINGHAM: You're going to get my vote, Bob. You're going to get it.

BECKEL: The reason McCain backed off was -- and apologized for it, because that kind of conversation, it's bad politics this time around. It doesn't work. It's like the ACLU. Or Sean was just going on about Barack Obama...

COLMES: All right. We're going to continue. Bob, what is your middle name, Bob? Bob, what's your middle name?

HANNITY: Daniel.

BECKEL: Gilroy (ph).

COLMES: We have Greta -- is it Conway Van Susteren? Greta Conway Van Susteren, here to tell us what's coming up at 10 Eastern.

Hello, Greta.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST, "ON THE RECORD": It is. My mom is 100 percent Irish. I'm undercover Irish.

And tonight, we have breaking news and several stories to tell you about. Sergeant Drew Peterson, breaking news we just got into FOX seconds ago. In the Scott Peterson case we have breaking news. And in the nanny case last night from the nanny cam.

We have so much going on. Don't go away. We'll see you at 10. Back to you.

HANNITY: And when we come back, we'll have more with Bill Cunningham and Bob Beckel. Does Barack Obama really have a friendly relationship with a member of the Weatherground (ph) -- the Weather Underground group from the 1970's? We get to that.

Also, Frank Luntz is here to tell us how last night's Democratic debate fared with the voters. Something only the dials can decipher. That's coming up next, straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: And we continue now with radio talk show host, nationally syndicated guy, Bill Cunningham. Three hundred and 20 stations around the country. And Bob Beckel is with us.

Bob Beckel, I want to ask you about William Ayres. If you recall, he admitted that he was involved in the bombings of New York City police headquarters in 1970, the Capitol building in 1971, the Pentagon in 1972.

We have a report out today, ABC News via the New York Sun that he donated to the Obama campaign. We have a report out, that Obama visited his home as, quote, "a rite of passage when launching his political career in the mid-1990s."

His spokesman -- Barack Obama -- said, "Yes, they're friendly. They know each other."

Does the presidential candidate for the Democratic Party have any business being friendly with and potentially accepting donations from a man that admits that he blew up and helped plan and set a bomb at our Pentagon?

BECKEL: Well, I mean, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower met with Joe Stalin, who killed 22 million people. Now, I suppose you could argue that that was a bad...

HANNITY: This man declared war on the United States.

BECKEL: But let's put it this way. The kind of guilt-by- association -- this happened in the '90s. It isn't going to work. Do I care? No. Do the American people care? No. You keep running that thing now?

HANNITY: You don't think so? Bob Beckel, he said in 2001...

BECKEL: It is a non-ACLU world. The non-liberal world. The non- commie world.

HANNITY: Let me read this to you.

BECKEL: All of the stuff you guys are running, that's 1990's, man. You guys are out of it. You're out of it.

HANNITY: Bill Cunningham, in 2001 the man that the Barack Obama spokesman says that he's friendly with now that declared war in the 1970's, involved in the bombing of a Pentagon and police headquarters, we now -- he said in 2001, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we did not do enough."

I think I think this is going to be a major issue, Bill Cunningham.

BECKEL: Hold on.

And are you suggesting that Barack Obama therefore supports that position?

HANNITY: I'm suggesting for his campaign to say they're friendly with the man that set bombs at the Pentagon and accepted a campaign donation from.

BECKEL: I mean, what about -- what about people who hung around with Jesse Helms?

HANNITY: Did Jesse Helms blow up the Pentagon? Did Jesse Helms declare war against the U.S.?

BECKEL: No, but he almost blew up the ACLU at...

CUNNINGHAM: Bob -- Bob, what if George Bush had met with Timothy McVeigh? This guy, Obama, is meeting with domestic terrorists who's blowing up American institutions, and you don't object to that? Come on, Bob! You're better than that.

COLMES: What do you mean by meeting with?

BECKEL: When did Bush meet with McVeigh?

COLMES: He happens to be on the board of directors of organizations that do fundraising, charitable fundraisers. And that doesn't mean he has any friendship with him. It doesn't mean he has anything to do with him.

BECKEL: Exactly.

COLMES: You are actually, again, trying to smear Barack Obama with this guilt by association, and this is going to come back and haunt the people who actually do the smearing.

So far it's not worked, and it's not going to work. And Mr. Cunningham, I think you should be ashamed of yourself if you think this is the way to run this campaign.

CUNNINGHAM: I'll tell you what, Youssef (ph) Colmes. I'm standing with Sean Hannity on this one, because I don't want any domestic terrorists to be meeting with presidential candidates.

COLMES: Wait a minute. Define "meeting." What are you talking about, meeting? Can you tell me exactly what you're talking about? What do you mean "meeting?"

CUNNINGHAM: According to news reports -- according to reports that Barack Hussein Obama has been friendly with Mr. Ayers and perhaps took campaign donations from him.

And also, Louis Farrakhan is the life-time award winner from the man that Obama claims...

COLMES: He's already renounced the Farrakhan endorsement. You're a couple of days behind here.

Bob Beckel, you want to respond?

BECKEL: Richard Nixon met with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and Mao.

CUNNINGHAM: They're not domestic terrorists.

BECKEL: Hold it. Bill, Bill, Billy, Billy. Can you just -- just because everybody now gets it, and I admire the fact that you stir it up. You use the word "Hussein" because it makes him sound like a Muslim, and it's good for stirring people up, right? Come on.

CUNNINGHAM: No. No, no, I used the man's name as given to him by his parents. And if you object to it, then you're the bigot and not me.

COLMES: Bill, I wish you were honest about what you're doing. I wish you were at least honest about your intent, which you so far have not done. But...

CUNNINGHAM: I have no intent except make America a better country.

COLMES: Thank you for being on with us.

Coming up, what were some of the highlights and low-lights of last night's debates? Frank Luntz polls undecided Democrats, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)










COLMES: Last night, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama battle it out in Ohio during last night's Democratic debate before Super Tuesday Part Two.

To find out which candidate came out on top, we go to our own Frank Luntz -- Frank.

FRANK LUNTZ, POLLSTER: We've had 27 uncommitted Democrats reacting to the Democratic primary debate. A lot of high points from last night. Let's take a look at the ones that stood out the most. Senator Clinton, whenever she talks about health care, she scores quite well. Notice how high the dials go as our uncommitted voters react to her positions on health care. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Health care reform and achieving universal health care is a passion of mine. It is something I believe in with all my heart. And every day that I'm campaigning and certainly here throughout Ohio, I've met so many families. It happened again this morning in Loraine, who are just devastated because they don't get the health care they deserve to have.

And, unfortunately, it's a debate we should have that is accurate and is based in facts about my plan and Senator Obama's plan, because my plan will cover everyone, and it will be affordable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUNTZ: So what was it about her health care positions that most turns you on?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think because of her experience before of failing, that now she knows the mistakes that she's made and can correct those.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was confident in the decision she made and in the decisions that she was talking about.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think because she tried it before, she's got the experience behind her, and you know, I think she can succeed at it now.

LUNTZ: But, again, you guys are telling me that she failed on health care, so that make you think she'll succeed now?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As president, she will.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I agree because I think she's right on health care, that we need to have a mandate if it's going to be affordable. We have to have shared responsibility on the issue.

LUNTZ: Now, it wasn't just health care that did quite well. Senator Obama, when he talked about jobs and investing in the economy, particularly for Ohio voters, scored off of the charts. Let's take a look at Senator Obama's response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to have to invest in science and technology. We've got to vastly improve our education system. We have to look at energy and the potential for creating green jobs that can not just save on our energy costs but, more importantly, can create jobs in building windmills that will produce manufacturing jobs here in Ohio, can put rural communities back on their feet by working on alternative fuels, making buildings more energy efficient. We can hire young people who are out of work and put them to work at a trade.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUNTZ: That was one of Obama's best responses. Why? Why?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought that Obama really hit the mark when he - - when he said that we need to go into new energy and stuff like that, get away from our dependence on foreign oil.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bring our jobs back to the United States and take them away from overseas.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he had specifics, and he was right on the mark as far as really going point by point.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With Obama, I just think I trusted more, being in a similar position in Ohio.

LUNTZ: You think Illinois and Ohio are similar?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very similar.

LUNTZ: Interesting.

That wasn't the only high point. At the close of the debate, Senator Clinton tried to press her experience, and once again, she did quite well. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: My experience and my unique qualifications on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue equip me to handle the problems of today and tomorrow and to be prepared to make those tough decisions in dealing with Putin and others, because we have so much work to do, and we don't have much time to try to make up for lost...

TIM RUSSERT, HOST, NBC'S "MEET THE PRESS": To be clear, you would like to have your vote back?

CLINTON: Absolutely. I've said that many times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUNTZ: I want a show of hands. How many of you think Hillary Clinton is more experienced than Barack Obama? But how many of you are supporting Senator Clinton after what you saw? Raise your hands.

So clearly, experience doesn't mean everything. What is the role of experience in this context?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I would like to see whoever's going against John McCain look like they know what they're talking about, because John McCain's does, and we need somebody strong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After seeing this debate, I would really like to see a Clinton-Obama team.

LUNTZ: How many of you would like to see a Clinton-Obama team? Almost unanimous. What is it about experience that means something to you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I mean, obviously, she's gone through, you know, different things in the past, and she's learned from her mistakes and she's willing to take on responsibility when she becomes president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things I think Hillary Clinton did the best is, with her experience, she shows that she can handle the world problems and foreign policy that we're going to need in the next president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think it's different between the two candidates in that Obama has a lot of domestic experience, and that's where he's strong, but Hillary by far has the more foreign policy experience.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think more importantly than anything is the fact that she knows how to deal with Congress.

LUNTZ: Final comment.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obama was very vague and wasn't saying what he'd do. Hillary said what she would do, and that didn't matter to experience, but it answered the question.

LUNTZ: Quick show of hands. Who's more detailed? Who says Hillary Clinton? Obviously, she had the advantage. An excellent response from our uncommitted voters. Last night was slightly to Senator Clinton's advantage.

Back to you.

HANNITY: All right, thanks, Frank.


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