Guests: Secs. Clinton and Gates, Fmr. Sec. Rumsfeld

By This Week, This Week - March 27, 2011

JAKE TAPPER, ABC NEWS: And joining me now in their first interview since the attacks on Libya began, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Madam and Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us.

I'll start with you, Secretary Gates. The mission is a no-fly zone and civilian protection but does not include removing Gadhafi from power, even though regimen change is stated U.S. policy. So why not have, as part of the mission, regime change, removing Gadhafi from power?

ROBERT GATES, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, first of all, I think you don't want ever to set a set of goals or a mission -- military mission where you can't be confident of accomplishing your objectives. And as we have seen in the past, regime change is a very complicated business. It sometimes takes a long time. Sometimes it can happen very fast, but it was never part of the military mission.

TAPPER: NATO has assumed control and command for the no-fly zone or is this weekend but not yet for the civilian protection. When do we anticipate that happening?

GATES: Hillary's been more engaged with that diplomacy than I have.

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, we hope, Jake, that NATO, which is making the military planning for the civilian protection mission, will meet in the next few days, make a decision which we expect to be positive to include that mission, and then just as the arms embargo and the no-fly zone has been transitioned to NATO command and control, the civilian protection mission will as well.

Tapper: what do you say to the people in Ivory Coast or Syria who say where's our no-fly zone? We're being killed by our government too.

CLINTON: Well, there's not an aircraft -- there's not an air force being used. There is not the same level of force. The situation is significantly different enough that the world has not come together. However, in Ivory Coast we have a U.N. peacekeeping force which we are supporting. We are beginning to see the world coalesce around the very obvious fact that Mr. Gbagbo no longer is president. Mr. Ouattara is the president.

So you know, each of these situations is different but in Libya when a leader says spare nothing, show no mercy and calls out air -- air force attacks on his own people, that crosses a line that people in the world had decided they could not tolerate.

TAPPER: When do we know that the mission is done? The no-fly zone has succeeded, civilian protection has stopped, when -- when do you --

GATES: I would say, for all practical purposes, the implementation of a no-fly zone is complete. Now it will need to be sustained, but it can be sustained with a lot less effort than what it took to set it up. As I indicated in my testimony on the Hill, you don't establishment a no-fly zone by just declaring it. You go in and suppress the air defenses and that mission is largely complete.

I think we have made a lot of progress on the humanitarian side and his ability to move armor, to move toward a Benghazi or a place like that has -- has pretty well been eliminated. Now we'll have to keep our eye on it because he still has ground forces at his beck and call. But the reality is they're under a lot of pressure. Their logistics -- there are some signs that they're moving back to the east -- back to the west away from Ajdabiya and other places.

So I think that we have prevented the large scale slaughter that was beginning to take place, has taken place in some places. And so I think that we are at a point where -- where the establishment of the no-fly zone and the protection of cities from the kind of wholesale military assault that we have seen certainly in the East has been accomplished and now we can move to sustainment.

CLINTON: You know, Jake, I would just add two points to what Secretary Gates said. The United States Senate called for a no-fly zone in the resolution that it passed I think on March 1th. And that mission is on the brink of having been accomplished. And there was a lot of congressional support to do something.

There is no perfect option when one is looking at a situation like this. I think that the president ordered the best available option. The United States worked with the international community to make sure that there was authorization to do what we have helped to accomplish.

But what is quite remarkable here is that NATO assuming the responsibility for the entire mission means that the United States will move to a supporting role. Just as our allies are helping us in Afghanistan where we bear the disproportionate amount of sacrifice and the cost, we are supporting a mission through NATO that was very much initiated by European requests joined by Arab requests.

I think this is a watershed moment in international decision making. We learned a lot in the 1990s. We saw what happened in Rwanda. It took a long time in the Balkans, in Kosovo to deal with a tyrant. But I think in -- what has happened since March 1st and we're not even done with the month demonstrates really remarkable leadership.

GATES: I would just add one other thing in sort of a concrete manifestation where we are in this and that is we and the Department of Defense are already beginning to do our planning in terms of beginning to draw down resources. First from support of the no-fly zone and then from the humanitarian mission. Now that may not start in the next day or two, but I certainly expect it to in the very near future.

TAPPER: Well, I wanted to follow on that. How long are we going to be there in this support role?

GATES: Well, I think that, as I say, we -- we will begin diminishing the level of our engagement, the level of resources we have involved in this, but as long as there is a no-fly zone and we have some unique capabilities to bring to bear, for example, intelligence, surveillance and recognizance, some tanking ability, we will continue to have a presence. But a lot of these -- a lot of the forces that we will have available other than the ISR are forces that are already assigned to Europe or have been assigned to Italy or at sea in the Mediterranean.

TAPPER: I've heard NATO say that this -- they anticipate -- some NATO officials say this could be three months, but people in the Pentagon think it could be far longer than that. Do you think we'll be gone by the end of the year? Will the mission be over by the end of the year?

GATES: I don't think anybody knows the answer to that.

TAPPER: Do you think Libya posed an actual or imminent threat to the United States?

GATES: No, no. It was not -- it was not a vital national interest to the United States, but it was an interest and it was an interest for all of the reasons Secretary Clinton talked about. The engagement of the Arabs, the engagement of the Europeans, the general humanitarian question that was at stake. There was another piece of this though that certainly was a consideration. You've had revolutions on both the East and the West of Libya.

TAPPER: Egypt and Tunisia.

GATES: Egypt and Tunisia.

So you had a potentially significantly destabilizing event taking place in Libya that put at risk potentially the revolutions in both Tunisia and Egypt. And that was another consideration I think we took into account.

TAPPER: Secretary Clinton, how does --

CLINTON: Jake, I just want to add too because, you know, I know that there's been a lot of questions and those questions deserve to be asked and answered. The president is going to address the nation on Monday night.

Imagine we were sitting here and Benghazi had been overrun, a city of 700,000 people, and tens of thousands of people had been slaughtered, hundreds of thousands had fled and, as Bob said, either with nowhere to go or overwhelming Egypt while it's in its own difficult transition. And we were sitting here, the cries would be, why did the United States not do anything? Why -- how could you stand by when, you know, France and the United Kingdom and other Europeans and the Arab League and your Arab partners were saying you've got to do something.

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