GOV. TIM PAWLENTY ®, MINNESOTA: The federal government should keep a lid on taxes, control government spending, and borrow less, rather than increase the size and scope of the federal government so much that Washington is guaranteeing future tax increases.
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SCHULTZ: A Pew Research poll asked, “What would you rather have, spending more money on health care or taking care of the deficit?”
A majority of the Americans chose health care over the deficit, 59 to 35 percent. A similar story when it came to education. There was a 58-38 split in favor of education over reducing the deficit.
Joining me now is the man who gave the GOP Saturday address, and that is Minnesota Governor, my governor from Minnesota, Tim Pawlenty.
Governor, good to have you on the first Ed program. Hope you‘ll be back whenever we ask you. Thanks a lot for being here tonight.
PAWLENTY: Fast Eddie, it is good to be with you. I can‘t believe they gave you your own show. This is remarkable. I‘m in awe.
SCHULTZ: You know, I‘ll tell you, guys from the Midwest who tell the truth can go anywhere, can‘t they?
Governor, I understand your ideology, but what does it say about the Republican Party if you‘re going to go down the path where the people aren‘t there?
PAWLENTY: Well, Ed, the statistics that you just pointed out show what‘s been true for a long time, and also highlights one of the problems and challenges we face, which is, if you ask people, would you like some stuff right now, or would you rather worry about taking care of our long-term problems and challenges, they always choose the immediate. So, when you have Hillary Clinton in China, on rhetorical bended knee, pleading with the Chinese to continue to buy the federal government‘s debt, lest we not be able to pay our bills and other sovereign wealth funds around the world, that tells you we‘ve got some real problems.
So I understand the need to get this economy moving. I wish they would do more of it through tax cuts and putting money in people‘s pockets. But you cannot ignore this debt, the exponential. The quantum growth in this depth is going to give us the federal debt equivalent of the mortgage crisis in the not-too-distant future.
SCHULTZ: Well, why is it always a tax cut, Governor? What‘s wrong with investing in education? What‘s wrong with investing in health care?
The number of uninsured that we have in this country in health care has got to be changed or we‘re not going to be able to overcome these numbers that you‘re talking about. I mean, doesn‘t it take an investment to turn this economy around? Don‘t you believe in that?
PAWLENTY: Well, the stimulus bill at $800 million, in my view, was too big and it wasn‘t properly targeted and focused. If you even take the high number that the White House uses to save or create four million jobs, that‘s $200,000 a job.
They sort of led us to believe it was going to be things that put cash in people‘s pockets or meat and potato infrastructure projects like roads and bridges, and it really turned into a large government spending program, Ed. So I believe there should have been some stimulus. I think this one was too big. I also believe they should have and could have focused it on things that put money into average Americans‘ pockets rather than supporting, continuing programmatic spending of the government.
SCHULTZ: Governor, do you think Minnesotans are with you on this? I mean, in your state, a bridge collapsed and killed 13 people. And there are other bridges in Minnesota that need support. There are bridges all over the country that need some infrastructure work.
What‘s wrong with investing in that and getting people to work?
PAWLENTY: Well, the bill didn‘t do that to a very good degree.
First of all, Ed, as you know, the bridge fell in Minneapolis, according to the National Transportation Safety Board, because of a design flaw from the 1960s. But setting that aside for the moment, if you look at the total amount of road and bridge money in the $800 billion stimulus bill, it‘s only around $50 billion.
When people know that, they say, wait a minute, I thought this was presented as kind of an infrastructure bill. And there‘s other infrastructure on the bill, but on the road and bridges, it‘s only about $50 billion out of $800 billion. People—it‘s kind of false advertising.
That wasn‘t the way it was presented
SCHULTZ: Well, actually, the number I got is $200 billion, but we‘ll let that go. And now there‘s...
PAWLENTY: Well, Ed, if you include all the infrastructure, you might get up above $100 billion, including ports and rail and a bunch of other things. But if you just focus on the road and bridge piece of it, it is nowhere near $200 billion. It‘s much closer to $50 billion.
SCHULTZ: Well, it‘s 200 billion, Governor, when it comes to construction in this country on the stimulus, but I‘ll let that go.
But I really want to focus in, what is the Republican plan for health care? You have got health care premiums going up all over the country.
I don‘t hear the Republicans coming forward with any kind of plan whatsoever. I don‘t hear them audibilizing anything. I don‘t see any plan.
What is it, Governor? And many people are looking at you for leadership. Your name is tossed out there a lot for 2012. I know it‘s early, but you‘re in the position to give these responses.
What‘s the plan for health care?
PAWLENTY: Well, here‘s a handful of things we need to do in health care, and these are consistent with Republican principles.
Number one, we need to get electronic medical records and electronic prescribing, and take out the inefficiencies in the system. We also should encourage payers, whether that‘s the government or private insurers, to use uniform billing codes so we don‘t have people in the backrooms of hospitals and clinics and doctors‘ offices trying to go through 20 different compliance regimes for different insurance companies.
We also need...
SCHULTZ: But Tim, that cost money. Governor, that costs money.
That‘s what the president is doing. He‘s putting $634 billion to what you just talked about, and that‘s a big part of it.
Why aren‘t the conservatives going to go on board with that?
PAWLENTY: Well, I think as to health information technology and electronic records, they would and they will. But here‘s—you know, that will save you 5 or 10 percent. But here‘s the big one.
We pay right now in health care for volumes of procedures. Ed, if you pay for volumes of procedures, what do you think you‘re going to get? More procedures.
We need to transition to where we pay for better health. We pay for health outcomes and health performance, give consumers good information about cost and quality, and give them incentives to use the system wisely. And I know we don‘t have time to go into this in detail, but in Minnesota, we‘ve done that. We‘ve done that, Ed, and it‘s made a huge difference.
SCHULTZ: Well, one thing that hasn‘t been done all over the country, including Minnesota, is reeling in these insurance companies that are charging exorbitant rates. And they‘re running wild. I think they need to be regulated.
Governor, great to have you on the program. I appreciate the discussion. We‘ll do it again. Thanks so much.
PAWLENTY: All right. Thanks for having me on the show. And you know I was pulling your leg there about being surprised about you getting a show. I don‘t always agree with you, but you always give me a fair shake.
Thanks.
SCHULTZ: Well, I try to. Thank you, Governor. Good to have you on.
We‘ll do it again.
PAWLENTY: All right.
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SCHULTZ: Joining me now is Senator Debbie Stabenow, Democrat from Michigan. Senator, good to have you on the program tonight. We‘ve seen the numbers across the country that most Americans now feel that we‘ve gone far enough with the big three, far enough with GM and Chrysler. But what‘s the attitude in Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana, where those people went to Barack Obama? They didn‘t expect that they were going to get thrown under the bus this early. What about that?
SEN. DEBBIE STABENOW (D), MICHIGAN: Well, Ed, first let me say, it‘s great to see your show. I think it‘s exactly what we need.
Congratulations on that.
SCHULTZ: Thank you.
STABENOW: We need somebody talking for working people and that‘s what you have always done. Let‘s face it, in Michigan, we are at the heart of the storm. And have people who have worked hard for a generation. Now, the backbone of the middle class, who have made things in this country and really created this country—I would argue the auto industry and the auto workers have created the manufacturing middle class that we have. And now we are in a very tough spot.
I have a little different take, though, as it relates to the president and what is happening with the Auto Task Force, because the fact is that under the proposal that—and the conditions that the Bush administration put forward, the Obama administration on March 31 could have said, you don‘t meet viability and so you have to pay the funds back, and that‘s it. That‘s not what they did.
I really do believe that they are very committed to doing everything they can to keep as many jobs as possible.
SCHULTZ: But what about those retirees—senator, I have to ask you, what about these retirees. They didn‘t vote to have their benefits cut. These are your constituents in Michigan.
STABENOW: No question. If you‘re asking me, do I think bankruptcy is a good idea? The answer is absolutely not. I don‘t support bankruptcy as an option. And the reality is that taxpayers shouldn‘t either, because we‘re talking about 670,000 people with pensions with General Motors alone that would become potentially a federal responsibility.
SCHULTZ: Absolutely.
STABENOW: It wouldn‘t have to be that way. There is a way to do it.
SCHULTZ: There‘s no doubt about that. But it would seem to me—
STABENOW: Right.
SCHULTZ: -- that if it goes to the Pension Guarantee Corporation, and people have to take a cut, I don‘t know how they are going to be motivated to come back and vote for the Democrats.
STABENOW: Well, first of all, people took a pay cut to get that pension, and they should not be cut in their pensions, period. People took pay cut after pay cut to keep their health care and to keep their pensions. And so there is a way to do this, even going into a bankruptcy.
Northwest Airlines, based out of Detroit substantially, went into bankruptcy, kept their pension obligations. We worked with them to help protect their pensions. They came out of bankruptcy. They kept their pension commitments. So it is possible to do that. And I am strongly urging the administration, whatever happens, to keep those pensions in tact, because people have worked hard all of their lives for those.
SCHULTZ: Senator, good to have you on with us tonight. Thanks so much.
STABENOW: Good to be with you.