Michael Steele On Attacks Against Bush

COLMES: And we get right to our top story tonight.

Things getting a little nasty on the campaign trail. Yesterday Senator Clinton called President Bush radical. And according to "The New York Times" Senator Joe Biden called the president brain dead. This latest round of harshly partisan rhetoric comes against the backdrop of Scooter Libby's commutation which has dominated the debate across the political spectrum all week.

Joining us now, former Maryland Lieutenant Governor and Fox News contributor Michael Steele and "Newsday" columnist and Fox News contributor, Ellis Henican.

Good to see both of you.

ELLIS HENICAN, "NEWSDAY": Hey, Alan.

MICHAEL STEELE, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: How's it going, Alan.

COLMES: By the way, when you have - Michael, welcome back. Michael, when you have a guy, they want to redefine torture, anything short of organ failure and death is OK. They start a war against a country not a threat to the United States. Let's see. Go down the list. They wiretap Americans without a warrant. They render people to other countries so they can be tortured there and then deny it. That is radical, isn't it?

STEELE: Alan, what are you whining about now?

COLMES: That's not whining. You call it whining, I call it telling the truth.

STEELE: Look, you've been going through this litany of complaints for the last two and a half years.

COLMES: You're not dealing with what I said, Michael. You're just calling me a whiner and that's radical what I just said.

STEELE: It's not radical. Look, calling the president radical because of those issues to me is just crazy. It's not radical to fight al Qaeda. It's not radical to go after terrorists .

COLMES: Putting people in jail without a right to an attorney with indefinite detention, without being charged with anything. These are radical concepts that go against our Constitution.

STEELE: Alan. Have you read the newspapers? Alan, we're at war, OK?

COLMES: Detaining people without a warrant. We still have a Constitution during that time of war.

STEELE: We're at a time of war, sir.

COLMES: Do we have a constitution during the war?

STEELE: You have -- Well, Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. I guess you'd pillory him today, wouldn't you?

COLMES: First of all, do you want to suspend habeas corpus?

STEELE: He tried his best, sir, to keep a nation together.

COLMES: Do you support George W. Bush?

STEELE: In other words, Alan, let me answer your point. In other words, the president in a time of war is going to take those measures that are within his power to take to secure the homeland and to engage and prosecute the battle abroad. That's exactly what he's doing.

COLMES: Michael, do you believe the Constitution does not exist during a time of war?

STEELE: Oh, come on, Alan. Of course the Constitution exists at a time of war but our enemies do not have rights under our Constitution, thank you very much.

COLMES: Actually, that's untrue. In fact, in our country if you're in the United States the Constitution, Ellis, pertains to persons, not citizens according to Judge Napolitano.

HENICAN: It's fully settled law and there are a bunch of others you could have mentioned .

STEELE: Come on, man, get with it.

HENICAN: . preemptive war which is a whole brand-new concept. The decision the other day based on some of the new appointees to the Supreme Court, all but overturning Brown versus Board of Education.

COLMES: Right.

HENICAN: There's radical stuff going on and frankly there's absolutely nothing wrong with the political leader standing forward and saying to.

COLMES: By the way, I don't agree with Joe Biden and would not have referred to the president as brain dead. I don't think that's proper rhetoric so I distance myself from that but I do think there are some radical things that have been done. I think commutation of Scooter Libby who worked in the executive branch in order to cover up .

STEELE: Oh, please.

COLMES: . and protect the vice president of the United States because of a leak that had to do with covering up the reason for war, that certainly is something that is also radical.

STEELE: Oh yeah, that's really radical, and by that standard Bill Clinton .

HENICAN: Pulled the Clinton card.

STEELE: Must be completely out of -- off the scale.

HENICAN: Here it comes.

STEELE: You know, you guys want to have it both ways. We're not going to let you get away with it. We're not going to let you sit there and go Clinton can sell off pardons .

HENICAN: Listen, listen, Alan .

COLMES: Let him finish. Let him finish.

STEELE: . Come on. Clintons can sell of pardons and here the president is using the judicious, I think, judgment in terms of .

COLMES: There is no evidence of pardons were sold. It's not a fair accusation. No evidence that there was a quid pro quo.

And Ellis Henican, what can they do when they can't defend their position they want to go back and bring up the guy who is president 10 years ago.

HENICAN: Of course.

And let me take just a second and defend dramatic rhetoric. I mean, one of the things we're celebrating this week is Independence Day and it allows us to say harsh things, sometimes even dramatic things about the president of the United States. It is well within the bounds of political dialogue.

And I don't understand why, Michael, anyone needs to be oh, my goodness, shocked that someone else would say a critical word about the president of the United States.

LOWRY: Hey, guys. It's Rich. Michael, thanks for being with us.

COLMES: I agree.

LOWRY: Ellis, good to see you again.

Now let me ask you a question that relies on your keen sense of moral discernment.

HENICAN: I will do my best.

LOWRY: What was more outrageous, the Clinton pardons or the two guys that gave Hugh Rodham $400,000 or the Clinton pardon, the carnival owners who gave Tony Rodham $107,000.

HENICAN: I don't need to go pardon by pardon with Clinton. Some of them I probably disagree with. But let's see if I can .

LOWRY: Did you disagree with those?

HENICAN: Listen, well, you know .

LOWRY: Yes or no.

HENICAN: Honestly, I haven't thought about it for seven years.

LOWRY: OK. Did you, at the time you were a columnist, did you denounce them? Yes or no?

HENICAN: I don't think I wrote about them.

LOWRY: Why not?

HENICAN: I did write about .

LOWRY: You're Mr. Equal justice under law.

HENICAN: Let me talk to you about this one, though, right? Of the two million people in American prisons right now, George W. Bush decided that the one person he wanted to give this wonderful gift to just so happened to be .

LOWRY: That's fine. But you didn't answer my question. You're outraged by those.

HENICAN: I don't need to .

LOWRY: You were outraged by those pardons?

HENICAN: That's a silly argument.

LOWRY: They can't even .

HENICAN: Hold on.

LOWRY: You can't answer, Ellis, you won't answer my question.

HENICAN: Let us agree .

LOWRY: Were you outraged by those pardons, yes or no?

HENICAN: I don't even remember those pardons because I have no recollection of them.

LOWRY: Let me refresh your memory.

HENICAN: Why does - let's talk about .

LOWRY: Hugh Rodham got $400,000. Why won't you answer?

HENICAN: Let us talk without you trying to change the subject .

LOWRY: Why won't you answer?

HENICAN: . about the pardon we're all dealing with this week. This week.

LOWRY: You will not and cannot answer the question.

HENICAN: What is he? A carnival barker or something? Do you remember that?

LOWRY: Michael, let me get you in on this. Michael .

STEELE: Yeah.

LOWRY: You have these people saying it's so outrageous Scooter Libby's sentence has been commuted and no president can do this, it undermines the Constitution and the rule of law but you had Clinton commuting the sentences of Puerto Rican terrorists. Marc Rich, an international fugitive and Susan McDougal who wouldn't cooperate with the investigation into Whitewater and these pardons that appear to have been brought with money, pay offs given to Hillary Clinton's brothers?

COLMES: No evidence of that. Completely untrue. Just plain untrue.

STEELE: Can I put all this in perspective for Ellis?

HENICAN: Oh, that will be a change. Go ahead, Michael.

STEELE: This is about as important as a pimple on a gnat's behind, OK? No one really cares. At the end of the day this pardon, this whole thing .

HENICAN: Let me tell you, Michael.

STEELE: Well let me - can I make the point?

HENICAN: If you'll do it swiftly, sure.

STEELE: It won't be forgotten.

What is important, what is important, what is important, and the American people are watching and what they're interested in, when we talk about presidential contenders and we're talking about a new Congress in 2008, 2009, what they're looking for are men and women who are prepared to stand up and lead the country.

The president you can argue for and against the policies for and against positions, but at this point in time we're in transition so what we should be focused on is what are these guys going to be talking about going forward?

HENICAN: Let me tell you, Michael, what is important.

STEELE: We're wasting a lot of time .

LOWRY: Michael, Michael, let Ellis go. Go ahead.

HENICAN: In this country we have the rule of law and the key principle of the rule of law is that all Americans are created equally and when you single out a guy who is the number two guy to the vice president, that is wrong.

LOWRY: You are a hypocrite if you didn't denounce that under the Clinton administration. You did not denounce it under the Clinton administration .

HENICAN: I denounced .

LOWRY: and you wouldn't even address it when I asked you.

HENICAN: You can't answer the issue today so you have to go back into ancient history.

COLMES: All right, guys.

LOWRY: The Libby case never should have happened. It never should have happened.

COLMES: When in doubt, bring up Bill Clinton.

LOWRY: It never should have happened.

HENICAN: He should have gone to prison.

COLMES: That's always the rule.

Thank you both very much for being with us.

HENICAN: Ah!

LOWRY: Ah!