Laura Ingraham, Dick Morris on Immigration

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED KENNEDY, (D) MA: This may not be perfect, but it's the best opportunity we have to do something significant and substantial, and I believe that the bill is good.

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COLMES: That was Senator Ted Kennedy pushing for the immigration bill which was resurrected in the Senate earlier today. It is too early for proponents of the deal to celebrate as some major hurdles still need to be cleared, like the House.

Joining us now is radio talk show host Laura Ingraham. Laura, they voted 64 to something to reintroduce it. But is the House ever going to pass this bill?

LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, it looks increasingly doubtful. The longer this goes on, despite the fact that cloture obviously was approved today, tomorrow there will be another cloture vote, so it will be late Thursday, there will be another cloture vote, I guess that's the day after tomorrow. And then Friday will be the vote on the entire bill.

So there are 24 amendments. I have a list of the amendments in front of me. There are 24 amendments, Alan, and there are a couple that are likely to be killer amendments. There is an amendment by Senator Menendez to essentially extend chain migration, bringing more family members in. And then there are others from Senator Hutchison and Senator Thune that are going to be tough for the liberals to swallow. So this is going to be a wild ride.

COLMES: I don't like it for the opposite reasons that you don't like it probably.

INGRAHAM: Good. We agree though. In principle we agree.

COLMES: In principle it's a bad bill. But I don't like it for other reasons. It's a big spending bill $4.4 billion extra in this bill. The fence they are talking about, the 700-mile fence is probably going to cost five to 25 times more than they are already saying it's going to cost.

INGRAHAM: Alan, do you know how much illegal immigration costs us?

COLMES: Whatever you are going to say, are you going to subtract the amount of money these people bring into the economy.

INGRAHAM: Twenty billion.

COLMES: And the taxes they pay.

INGRAHAM: Twenty billion. Alan.

COLMES: They also pay taxes. They also send money into the economy.

INGRAHAM: Here is the deal. Here is the deal. We either decide that we are a country or we are not a country. If we want to be part of just some global marketplace of ideas and economics, then we can do that and that's fine. But if we want to be a country, then countries have borders. And if we have borders, then the borders should be enforced. And we haven't been doing that.

COLMES: This doesn't do it.

INGRAHAM: And I think you can see, Alan, from the reaction across the country, left, middle and right, people, basically don't want this bill. And all these Republican senators, Lindsey Graham and, you know, the list goes on, Trent Lott, et cetera, et cetera, I'm telling you, a lot of people are now calling them former senators. Former Senator Graham.

COLMES: If you think a fence is going to do it. If you think the billions of dollars we are throwing at the problem is going to do it .

INGRAHAM: We have a little acronym on our show called ETL, enforce the laws.

COLMES: How are you going to do it?

INGRAHAM: Employers shouldn't be hiring illegal also obviously. We can enforce the laws. We can hit home plate in Yankee Stadium with a nuclear weapon if we want to. We are so accurate militarily. You don't think we have the ability to enforce our borders?

COLMES: I don't know that we can.

INGRAHAM: Oh, come on.

COLMES: Not with a 3,000-mile border.

INGRAHAM: So you are saying, Alan.

COLMES: And you've got to do something about .

HANNITY: Hang on a second. Laura, finish your thought and I have a question for you.

INGRAHAM: Alan is saying the world's greatest super power cannot secure her borders. I'm stunned that Alan Colmes is saying that on national TV. It's ridiculous.

HANNITY: Listen. I've worked with him long enough. Nothing he says stuns me.

INGRAHAM: I know. We still love him.

HANNITY: Here's -- let's look at the political side of this for a second, Laura.

INGRAHAM: Sure.

HANNITY: The president now, since they started this debate has lost 10 points. His approval rating was already low. Congress is now what, seven or eight points below that. The American people by a margin of 80 percent could not want this bill but they keep forcing it down our throats. Why would they do that just for pure political reasons would they not see that they're on the wrong side of the issue here?

INGRAHAM: Well, the Democrats want to do it because this electorate is not as liberal as the Democrats need it to be to get all their social policies enacted. It's just not working. So they need a new electorate. That's what the Democrats are doing.

HANNITY: Do you think they are really thinking that long term?

INGRAHAM: Sean, they are in it for the long-term. This is long-term. Some people think it's morally the right thing to do. And that's fine. I'm sure President Bush thinks that others really believe that globalism and the global economy requires that we have essentially an unlimited supply of cheap labor coming into the United States at all costs, at sovereignty costs, at national security costs, health care costs, education costs, all of it. That's what it is. It's globalism with morality and, you know, a little bit of electorate protection thrown in.

HANNITY: I've never -- I think the Republican Party is now fractured over this.

INGRAHAM: Oh, yeah, you think?

HANNITY: I've been on talk radio, Laura, now this is my 20th year if you can believe that, since I started my radio career.

INGRAHAM: Oh my goodness. You started when you were three.

HANNITY: Basically, yeah. But I have never ever heard an audience this angry, this frustrated. Feeling that distant from their government that they feel their government is incapable of solving even the most basic of problems here. And it seems simple to me. Build the fence, hire the agents, use new technologies, secure the border first. Why five and a half years after 9/11 can't we get to that point?

INGRAHAM: Well, it's shocking and it's outrageous. And let me tell you this. Republicans have stuck together as a coalition, the national security Republicans, the social conservatives, and the libertarians.

And right now the traditional conservatives, kind of the more socially conservative voters. They are going to think that the business community is more of a danger to their future, to their culture than, let's say, liberals. When Bernie Sanders is more in touch with the American people than President Bush on this issue, you know the republican party is in trouble.

HANNITY: All right. Let me ask. Do you think it gets stopped in the Senate? We have got another cloture vote on Thursday.

INGRAHAM: We can still stop it.

HANNITY: Or does it go to the House.

INGRAHAM: Well, I think there is a good chance that one of these killer amendments, either the Thune amendment, the Hutchison amendment or the Menendez amendment is going to fracture this thing beyond repair. I think that's a real possibility. I think the House is hearing it.

These guys, Sean, are essentially at the point where they need to unplug fax machines and take their phones off the hook because they're getting so many calls.

HANNITY: They need to start listening, actually, to what those people are saying that are calling in in droves.

INGRAHAM: It would be nice, wouldn't it?

COLMES: When Bernie Sanders is more in touch maybe you ought to reconsider party affiliation. You know what I'm saying.

INGRAHAM: Alan, please, you are hopeless. We love you.

COLMES: From you that's a badge of honor .

INGRAHAM: We love you.

COLMES: . when you tell me that, Laura.

HANNITY: By the way, I agree with Ingraham, he's hopeless. Hopeless.

COLMES: Badge of honor when you say it too, Hannity. Coming up, Fred Thompson rise above the pack and John McCain continues to sink like a stone. At least that's what some polls are showing. Dick Morris takes us inside the 2008 run to the White House.

Later, American Tour de France winner Floyd Landis fights to clear his name and points a finger at a possible French conspiracy. Coming up.

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HANNITY: U.S. Senate voted earlier today to reconsider the immigration reform bill, but the legislation isn't in the clear just yet.

Joining us now is the author of the New York Times best seller now, the book "Outrage". Former Clinton advisor Dick Morris back with us.

By the way, Dick, congratulations, debuting No. 5 on the New York Times. And it's a terrific book. Welcome back.

DICK MORRIS, AUTHOR, "OUTRAGE": Thank you. You know, Laura Ingraham said it best in the previous session. She said the immigration bill is an outrage. And I agree with that. I love her choice of words.

HANNITY: But you know, it gets to the point that I've been raising a lot here, Dick, is that there is a lot of outrage in this country, that the fence hasn't been built, that earmarks are used, that back room deals are made here. A lot of frustration.

And it's shown by the approval ratings. Congress, they haven't been this low in 15 years. You know, it's a lot of what you're talking about.

MORRIS: Sean, 27 percent of the inmates, one out of every four inmates in state and federal prisons, is an illegal immigrant. And they're not in on immigration violations. They're in on real crimes that they committed.

So, it's pretty much a quarter of the crimes in this country are committed by people who are here illegally in the first place. And Laura - - Laura Ingraham was right. It costs us about $15 billion just to keep those people in jail.

HANNITY: You know, you and I have this argument all the time. I want a politician that has core values, principles, fundamental beliefs that they fight for because they believe in. My argument here is that Republicans have abandoned those principles.

Now you, interestingly, you always look to the polls and demographics. Both the polls and my values are in sync. And Congress is out of sync with both of them. It seems like political suicide for them.

MORRIS: Absolutely. Nobody likes this bill. The left doesn't like it, and the right doesn't like it. The left doesn't like it, because they don't like the guest worker thing, indentured servitude. And the right doesn't like it because of the amnesty provision.

But both parties are committed to pushing it. The leadership of both parties are determined to see this bill through for one reason. They're scared to death of the Hispanic and Latino vote. And George Bush is determined that a Republican president's signature is going to be on this bill.

HANNITY: So he's willing -- he's willing to let his poll numbers. But potentially, Harry Reid's number right now is about 19. Congress hasn't been this low in 15 years.

The president, since he began this fight over this bill has lost 8 to 10 points. He's willing to go into the teens because of what you're saying?

MORRIS: Yes, absolutely. That's precisely what he's willing to do. The Hispanics cast 6 percent of the vote in 1996. And they're probably going to cast 12 percent of the vote in 2008.

By 2020 it's going to be up to 20 percent of the vote. And African- Americans will be about 13 or 14. So it will be 1/3 of the vote will be black or Hispanic.

HANNITY: Let me ask you this.

MORRIS: And Bush is determined that they will not be.

HANNITY: Democrats.

MORRIS: Top heavy Democratic group. He's willing to sacrifice his presidency to that.

HANNITY: But you're the poll guy. The American people overwhelmingly, 80 percent, want one thing accomplished. They want the border secure. Why not just do that first? Why not?

MORRIS: And why not have done that for six years, Sean?

HANNITY: That's a good question.

MORRIS: One of the things that I write about in "Outrage" that I consider an outrage. Is we claim that we deport 200,000 people a year. At that rate, it's going to take 65 years to get everybody -- get all 12.5 million out of the country.

We don't deport 200,000. We send out 200,000 letters saying, "Please show up in court a month from next Tuesday to be deported." They're called run letters. And we have no idea if 85 percent of the people who get those letters leave or not. All we know is they don't show up in court. So we hope that they're deported.

COLMES: Hey, Dick.

MORRIS: And it's the failure to have set up a deportation system that is so undermining Bush right now.

COLMES: Our own Justice Department says that the percentage of people in jail who are here illegally and legally are about the same, on a federal level. Furthermore, a Gallup Poll shows most people...

MORRIS: I'm sorry, say that again, Alan. Alan.

COLMES: Most -- the percentage of people who are here in jail who are illegally -- The percent of people in jail who are illegally in the country is equal to the percentage of people federally in jail of the entire population. Does not...

MORRIS: So you're saying that half? But what about the rest of the population that is -- that are citizens and...

COLMES: I'm just telling from you a federal level, that's what our Justice Department says.

MORRIS: So what you're saying to me is 50 percent of the people in jail are citizens, one quarter are illegal immigrants, and one quarter are illegal immigrants?

COLMES: It's at a 6 to 7 percent rate...

MORRIS: That's the best argument I've ever heard against immigration.

COLMES: ... in jail, whether they're here illegally or not. The fact of the matter is also that, according to the Gallup Poll, most Americans favor some pathway to citizenship for people already in this country.

MORRIS: Alan -- you're breezing past your own number. If one out of every four crimes committed in the United States is committed by someone who shouldn't be here in the first place, don't you think we should throw them out?

COLMES: You're saying that I'm buying those numbers. I'm telling you what our own Justice Department says, as reported in the New York Times about two weeks ago. So I don't know that I buy that number.

MORRIS: Yes. I'm applying your numbers.

COLMES: And I'm telling you also that the Gallup Poll suggests more people want a pathway to citizenship. They don't.

MORRIS: Alan, 27 percent of the people in the United States, in jails, state and federal prison, are illegal immigrants. We know that. That's not a question that's up for grabs.

And we know that it costs us about $40,000 a year to keep them there. So we know that that costs us $12 to 14 billion. And we know that when they get out of prison, we have no effective way of deporting them. And I just think that is -- well, I think it's an outrage.

COLMES: Well, I dispute those numbers. And we're going to pick it up in just a moment.

[...]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL NEWMAN, ACTOR: I am proud to stand with fellow Democrats, fighting the policies of this White House and their policies on Iraq, terrorism, the environment, the economy. They're all making America less strong as a nation.

The Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee is the only organization focused exclusively on electing Democrats to the Senate. While the election may seem far off, the Republican machine is already hard at work launching attack ads, raising money, trying to regain power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: That's iconic actor Paul Newman in a fundraising ad for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. Conservatives are saying this could be the beginning of Hollywood hot shots trying to play politics in the 2008 election.

We now continue with the author of "Outrage", Dick Morris.

I thought Fred Thompson's possible ascension to a candidacy is the beginning of Hollywood hot shots trying to play politics in 2008. Will he be as successful as a candidate as a non-candidate?

MORRIS: I'm not sure Fred is up to the level of hot shot yet but, yes.

What -- the strange thing going on now in both parties in the presidential race, there is an allergy to anything having anything to do with Washington. The Democrats are fed up with Congress, because they voted to change Congress. And they expected ethical changes. They expected withdrawal from Iraq, and they haven't gotten anything.

And the Republicans are getting fed up with the Republicans in Congress because of their support of the amnesty and illegal immigration bill.

And I think that is moving Fred Thompson's candidacy. I think that he's seen as sort of the un-Washington.

My question about him, though, is to what extent are people judging him or to what extent are they judging the actor and the role that he plays on "Law & Order"? They're not the same person.

COLMES: I just wonder...

MORRIS: I wonder if he'll do as well unscripted as he does scripted.

COLMES: Exactly. I also wonder how can he run as an outsider? He was assistant counsel going as far back as far as Watergate. He's been a lobbyist. He's got some issues with who he made or represented as a lobbyist, some the things he fought for representing people like Jean- Bertrand Aristide of Haiti.

Doesn't he have some issues there?

MORRIS: Yes. Sure he does, and negative research would have a good time with him and with Rudy Giuliani's clients and all of that.

But let's remember how Fred Thompson got into politics. It was one of the most courageous things that I can recall.

He found out from a woman, who was actually a former nun, that people were selling pardons in the state of Tennessee. And as a private attorney, he represented her. He fought for her, and he precipitated a scandal that led to the governor being thrown out of office. That's how he got elected to the Senate.

Frankly, I think it's better than anything he ever actually did.

COLMES: What about his accomplishments as a senator? Are there any?

MORRIS: Well, he did lead the campaign finance hearings and discovered the -- that that campaign that I was working on was being financed by his sending out for Chinese food. But, he did, unearth the Chinese connection with that. And he was a pretty good senator.

But, you know, I have to feel, Alan, that the fundamental issue for the Republican Party is terrorism.

And Paul Newman in that letter he says, says that Republicans stay in power by fear mongering. Well, my goodness, if you look at the terror plots that have been foiled in the last few years -- and I go through every one of them in "Outrage" -- you realize that we are living in a time where we're continuously under assault.

HANNITY: Hey, Dick.

MORRIS: And the only reason another 9/11 hasn't happened is we have a pretty good goalie in Washington, making save after save after save.

HANNITY: That's a great point. You know, and by the way, you can tell the left is a little threatened by Fred Thompson and Rudy Giuliani, because they're ratcheting up their attacks. And they ignore all the ethical issues of Hillary.

I want to ask you, though, a question about Barack Obama. Because so much has been made, for example, about Mitt Romney's faith.

Here's Barack Obama. His minister holds, you know, these black separatist views about the black value system. I challenged him right here on this program about this. You know, Obama goes out there attacking, quote, "the religious right," the religious right.

What about the religious left? I've never heard the term the religious left, you know. You know, what about the Reverend Sharpton and the Reverend Jackson and, you know, others that...?

MORRIS: Well, actually, it's kind of interesting. Bill Clinton once asked me in 1996 how many are there in the religious left? Just that question.

And I did a poll for him, and I found that 17 percent of America went to church once a week or more and was pro-life and antigay marriage and so on. But another 17 percent went to church once a week or more and was pro- choice and liberal on most of those issues.

And they have yet to be galvanized into a political force. And I think both Hillary and Obama, coming at it from different perspectives, are trying to do that. And I think it's a pretty shrewd political move.

HANNITY: All right. But where you stand right now, I think you and I agree about this, that this is Hillary's nomination. Obama is not really giving her a challenge. You know, one of the -- my observations, I think all the attacks against Barack Obama and John Edwards.

I get the impression the Hillary camp is, you know, alternating days going one after the other, using the press to leaks these negative stories against both of them. And I don't think either one of them has effectively come up with a strategy to defend themselves.

MORRIS: Well, certainly, the New York Times, you know, which still rules the conventional media, went out of the way to savage John Edwards with a front page story and a full inside story that essentially said nothing other than that he's rich. And...

HANNITY: But no, but they also went into -- they went into detail about this -- this group that he formed after the 2004 election, where he's basically using it to further his political ambition when it was supposed to be a charity for poverty.

MORRIS: Sure. But my question is, OK, he's at 14 percent in the polls. The person who's at 38 percent in the polls has had $3.3 million drawn into a personal checking account that she maintains with her husband from a company that the New York Times itself identified as selling lists of elderly with Alzheimer's...

COLMES: Dick, do you have any evidence that Hillary Clinton is behind attacks on other candidates? Do you have any evidence...

MORRIS: Where's the Times on that?

COLMES: ... that Hillary is behind attacks on other candidates?

HANNITY: Just past precedence, Alan.

COLMES: I'm asking Dick. Do you have any evidence of that?

MORRIS: No, I don't. But I do know that the only operation that can afford that extensive research job is one of the candidates, and in particular, it's Hillary.