I sat down with Senator John McCain on Wednesday. The following is a transcript of his remarks on various subjects which has been slightly edited for clarity. I began by asking McCain for his thoughts on the leaking of the National Intelligence Estimate:
McCain: First of all, I think the timing has got to be political. It was issued in April, and now here we are in October, September-October, so what do you think? So I think it's clearly political. Also, only parts of it were leaked. And I don't know what the whole thing is still, because the administration released their parts of it, but the casual observer would conclude it's political and designed to damage the administration there's no doubt about that. So when I say that's the only conclusion that I draw.
Second of all, I guess, that there's clearly some validity to the fact that when we have not had the success that we had hoped in Iraq, that always emboldens our enemies. That's what happens in wars. And I would still argue that, if that's true, then it makes a more compelling case for us to succeed in Iraq because if we fail further, then that will embolden them more. So in a way, they bolstered our argument, my argument, that the benefits of success in Iraq are enormous and the consequences of failure are catastrophic.
By the way, I don't mean to stray from the subject but a really entertaining thing happened day before yesterday. The Democrats had this hearing with two generals and a colonel, and it was a Rumsfeld-as-piñata encounter. But the interesting thing is that at the very end they made a terrible, cardinal error: they asked the generals and the colonel what we should do and they answered "stay the course," "more troops," "can't afford to lose." Oops. Hearing over. I thought it was wonderful. I'm sure they weren't pleased to hear the generals say we need more troops and we have to stay the course and we can't afford to lose. I'm sure some staffer probably got reprimanded or fired for allowing such a question to be asked.
So, look, have we got problems in Iraq? Sure. Anyone who doesn't believe that isn't observing events on the ground. Have we made mistakes in Iraq? Sure we have. Have there been significant problems in Iraq? Yes. But, we cannot afford to lose this. The Iraqi army is getting better, that's the good news. The police aren't. In fact Talibani told me that yesterday, for us to say that's not true. I met with President Talibani yesterday, and he complained about the police.
Are some parts of Iraq very much under government control, peaceful, and things are getting better? Sure. Anbar province is a disaster. Parts of Baghdad are obviously at unacceptably high level of sectarian violence. Do we need more troops over there? Hell yes.
RCP: How many more, do you think?
McCain: Oh, I was asked that on Sunday and I said twenty to thirty thousand, but that really translates into closer to one hundred thousand, because if you're going to have twenty or thirty thousand there, you've got to have double that number back in the reserves so you can rotate.
RCP: Do you think the NIE as a political matter, is doing damage at the moment? Or do you think this is this not real news because it was from April?
McCain: It's not real news, but it helps Democrats refocus on Iraq from the war on terror. So that, I think, would probably - an objective might say that part's helped them. But as far all the sudden swinging American sentiment - Americans have pretty well made up their mind about the war.
RCP: Let me ask you -
McCain: But I want to mention this about the war. Americans are frustrated, they're saddened, and they want to get out. But they don't want to get out according to a calendar. They want to get out according to conditions on the ground. And still, significant majorities, although frustrated and may think that we shouldn't have gotten in there in the first place, sill don't agree with this set a date with for withdrawal. Thank God.
RCP: What should be done about the continued leaking of classified information? How would a McCain administration deal with leaks?
McCain: I'd try and enforce the law. I think that there is significant damage done when classified information is leaked. But I want to add, we also have to guard against governments, whether they're Democrat or Republican, classifying everything which does not bear the need or meet the criteria for classification.
RCP: Do you think that's the case now?
McCain: I think that's the case with every administration. By the way, this does not apply to the NIE. The NIE is classified and should remain classified. But there are times when all administrations, because they don't want negative publicity, will overclassify information. That's just reality. So we have to have, I think, some system where somebody says "this doesn't need to be classified." Time after time I've read information over the years that has been declassified for various reasons and the first thing you say to yourself is, "why was this classified to start with?" But having said that, I think, the leaking of classified information is a danger to national security and we should act accordingly.
RCP: So you think the leakers should be prosecuted?
McCain: Yes, and I think they did that in the.... Frankly, I don't know how this Plame case came out. Seems like the leaker is not the one that's in trouble. But, at least they attempted in the Plame case to try to track it down.
Next, we talked about the status of the military commission bill, which was still in flux at the time but ended up passing the Senate yesterday by a 65-34 vote. I asked McCain on Wednesday morning if he was "totally satisfied" with the bill as it stood, and he replied:
McCain: Oh, you know, if I'd have written it all myself? No. But I'm satisfied with the result. It's a process we go through here. Except the one major bump in the road, we've had good faith negotiations with the White House on it. [Stephen] Hadley and [Steven] Bradbury have been honest brokers, and I know that the President directed them to sit down and work this out because we had the same goal.
On the issue of immigration, McCain said he would vote in favor of the fence (scheduled for today) but said he'd probably "insert a statement in the record along with my vote to say, 'this is not the total solution.'" McCain seemed hopeful that a deal on comprehensive reform could still be worked out at some point in the future.
McCain: Here's how I think the compromise comes out. We set up a framework that all of the necessary measures to secure our border - not seal, by the way, the Israelis found out you can't seal a border - to secure our borders have been taken. In other words, authorize increased number of border patrol, facilities that need to be built, a fence, and the money appropriated so that we can go to our constituents and say "look, here's what every expert says is necessary to secure our borders, and these are the measures we've taken. " And that's going to take us a couple of years - to build the fence, install the sensors, build the towers and hire the border patrol, etc- and now we're going to try to address a temporary worker program and somehow dispose of the 11 or 12 million people who are already here.
Just, for example, the temporary worker program. Suppose tomorrow we said "ok, anybody who works here as a temporary worker is going to have to have a biometric tamper proof visa." It would take us a year and half or two years anyway to set up such a program, starting from scratch. So our proposal is: take the steps necessary to secure the border, have it in place, but also start trying to address these other two issues, because the great fear of our base, and it's understandable and legitimate, is that we do what we did in the 1980s: promise to secure the borders, give amnesty, and yet the flow continues.
RCP: Are suggesting or are you open to doing those in two parts, passing a security bill first and then bringing on a temporary worker later?
McCain: As long as we're committed to addressing these issues. We still have a difference in belief. There are some who believe all we need to do is secure the border. The President, I, and so many others believe it has to be comprehensive reform. And when I talk to audiences about this and say, don't you think we have to do something with these 11 or 12 million people, even if it's round them up and send them back, which I don't know how you do, but don't you think we have to address the issue? Everybody grudgingly nods their head. Do you think we need, particularly in agriculture, a temporary worker program? People say yes.
So this is a bridgeable gap. But again, the fear of our Republican base, and it's legitimate, because of what happened in the 80's is we say: OK, now we're going to give these people a path to citizenship and we're going to have a temporary worker program, but we don't secure the border so 10 years from there are 12 million more who've come across the border. They want a commitment to make the border secure. I understand that.
The discussion segued into a brief remark by McCain about the Democrats' election strategy, followed by his feeling about Republican prospects this November:
McCain: [Minority Leader Harry] Reid's plan, let's be honest, is do nothing. Go into the election in November saying it's a "do nothing Congress." So whether his people are for or against a fence, or for or against the detainee issue, or for or against suveillance program, or for or against whatever, he doesn't want anything done.
I hate to get into arcane stuff with you, but we were about to finish the defense appropriations bill, and we went out on the August recess. There were two or three amendments remaining, and we could have wrapped it up - as we usually do on Thursday nights when people are trying to get out - and Harry Reid said "No. No, we can't finish it. We've got too much work to do." So it spilled over into September. Guess what happened in September? A big amendment to call for Rumsfeld's resignation on the defense appropriations bill. What did that do? It ate up a week. That's a clear strategy on their part, and I'm not saying that's a bad strategy if I were a Democrat, I'm just saying, that's the strategy.
RCP: Let's talk about the election real quick since you mentioned it. You probably travel as much around the country as anyone, if not more than anyone -
McCain: They say more
RCP: I've seen your schedule. I believe it. What are you hearing from people out there, at the district level, at the state level, and how do you see things turning out in November?
McCain: I'm of course nervous. History shows that the off year election of a second term president is bad for the party in power, and Iraq overlays everything. It is the most important issue - and it should be. We're at war.
But one of the areas I worry about - first, could I say I think the last two or three weeks thanks to focus back on the war on terror, 9/11, some good speeches by the President, a number of things, we're seeing some upward motion. And that's good news. Some of our House seats are less in danger than they were before...
RCP: Although, curiously, and we watch the polls pretty closely, and one of the things we've noticed is that even though there has been an uptick in Bush's job approval and a close in the generic vote, some of the Senate polls haven't shown the same sort of movement.
McCain: I was down in Florida campaigning with Charlie Crist. And we went all over Florida - and you know that Florida is like three or four different states. Every place that we went people were upbeat. They've got a great governor, Jeb Bush, the economy is good, the Republican party is doing well.
Then you fly to Ohio for Mike DeWine, who is one of the finest members of the Senate I've ever known and, boy, it's a bleak landscape out there. So it's somewhat regional, this political environment. In many parts of the country I think we're going to be fine. I think there are other areas of the country where we have significant challenges - Ohio, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan - across that area they've lost manufacturing jobs, the war in Iraq has hit them hard.
But there's one other aspect of this that doesn't get discussed and should be. Every time I talk to the party faithful about spending, they get angry. They are angry. They don't get angry, they are angry. The part of our base that has to do with fiscal discipline is angry at us - and they should be. There's no reason why they shouldn't be. When I mention the Bridge to Nowhere, they know it. They know it. And so, one my major concerns is that - they won't vote Democrat, that doesn't bother me - but they might stay home. That's a concern that I have in talking to all these Republican audiences.
I still think we can maintain control of both Houses. I think we can win some of these races that are very close now. Do not give up on Rick Santorum, he's a great campaigner. Mike DeWine has many years of service to the state of Ohio, I'm still optimistic about him. I think George Allen will emerge - I know George Allen well, he's a very fine and decent person - I think he can emerge from this imbroglio he's been stuck in here. So, I'm still upbeat and I'll still work as hard as I can to help these candidates.
If the House goes Democrat, I believe we'll see gridlock, but worse than that you'll see a blizzard of subpoenas. The Democrats are like that old story about the scorpion and the frog: they're going to sting just because that's the way they are.
RCP: How important do you see this election being in the grand scheme of things with Iraq and the war on terror?
McCain: Every even numbered year politicians go around and say "this is the most important election in history." I think it's a very important election. I think it was more important to reelect George Bush in 2004. Every day I feel happier that George Bush was reelected. But I'd put it up there as one of the most important elections because of the national security challenges we face around the world.