DAVID GREGORY: Mr. Secretary, welcome back to Meet the Press.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Good to be here David.

DAVID GREGORY: Always good to have you. Big developments at the end of the week have to do with Goldman Sachs, the investment firm, in a civil fraud case that has been brought against the firm-- for allegedly misleading investments-- investors. Essentially-- selling products that they would never themselves buy. If you take a step back, what is the broader significance of these charges?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: You know, David, I can't comment on the details on that investigation or on the merits, but I can tell you that I am very confident that we're gonna have the votes for a strong package of financial reforms that'll bring derivative markets out of the dark, help protect the taxpayers from having to fund future bailouts and trying to make sure we're getting Americans some basic protection against fraud and abuse.

I think it's-- we're very-- I'm very confident we're gonna have a strong bill 'cause this is about the basic financial security of the country and about the financial security of all Americans. And I think we will see Republican and Democrats come together and pass strong reforms.

DAVID GREGORY: And we'll get into some of that reform. Do charges like this, does a case like this-- you won't talk about the specifics, I understand. Does it help your case getting your financial reform?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Why would you need a case like this? You've had eight and a half million Americans lose their jobs. You had millions of Americans lose their house. Tens of thousands of businesses fail. Worst financial crisis in generations. That is a powerful case for reform. And, again, that's why I'm so confident we're gonna see Americans come together and pass reform.

DAVID GREGORY: Well, you had all of those things, sure. And in this case, as it's alleged, you have-- somebody who apparently makes a billion dollars by betting against the market. And a firm, Goldman Sachs-- denying wrongdoing. But accused of, again, selling-- a financial product that it would itself not buy. I mean doesn't this feed what America really resents about how Wall Street is operating?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, again, I-- I can't comment on the merits of this case but, again, in this financial crisis you saw a range of just terrible things happen. Catastrophic failures in judgment by people running these institutions. Catastrophic failures in basic protections governments have to provide. And the consequences were devastating.

DAVID GREGORY: Is it time to start teaching some people lessons on Wall Street?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Oh, I think, again, the best thing we can do for the country is to make sure we put in place strong protections, rules of the game, reforms with teeth. You want a system that acts preemptively to prevent these things from happening. You don't want a system where have the government clean up the mess later. The best way to protect Americans from these things happening is to put a stronger system in place where people were able to-- act ahead of the storm. Ahead of the abuse. Ahead of the crisis.

DAVID GREGORY: Let's talk more broadly then about financial regulation. Earlier this year President Obama issued a declarative statement. And let me play it for you.

PRESIDENT OBAMA (ON TAPE): Never again with the American taxpayer be held hostage by a bank that is too big to fail.

(BREAK IN TAPE)

DAVID GREGORY: And so, at the heart of financial reforms, new rules for Wall Street. Can you guarantee that these rules guarantee no more bailouts?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: What we can guarantee is if Congress joins with the President in passing the reforms we've proposed, reforms that passed the House. Now working their way through the Senate. Then taxpayers will not be on the hook for bailing out these large institutions from their mistakes in the future.

DAVID GREGORY: Who will be then?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, the banks are gonna be on the hook for paying the cost of any future crisis. That's a simple basic proposition. And, again, I think that's something you're gonna see Democrats and Republicans agree on 'cause it's a basic fair-- thing of fairness which is why should we put the American taxpayer in the position ever again where they have to use a penny of their money to pay for the mistakes of our large institutions.

DAVID GREGORY: But it's not like the government wanted to use their money this go around. The problem is that if a bank or a firm, a financial firm, gets into trouble, what do they need? They need cash to stay afloat. So even if they put some cash on the table, what if they need more?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: He--

DAVID GREGORY: Aren't the markets gonna expect-- are the firms goin' to expect that government's gonna be there?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Yeah, of course. And that's why it's so important you put in place reforms. 'Cause, you know, it's not just we still have in place today the same system that caused the crisis. Because of the actions we had to take that we were forced to take to protect the economy, that-- relieved people if we don't reform the systems we--

(OVERTALK)

DAVID GREGORY: But I don't see what will be different. You say that they'll have to pay for it, but what if they need more cash--

(OVERTALK)

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Again, the two most important things we are gonna do in the reforms we'll do is to make sure we can constrain risk taking by these large institutions. Prevent them from taking on too much leverage. Writing hundreds of billions of dollars of commitments they can't meet with capital. Move derivatives out of the dark so that we can--

(OVERTALK)

DAVID GREGORY: We have to stop and tell people what a derivative is.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: A derivative (CHUCKLES) is a way to buy insurance against some risk or to bet on some financial outcome. You can do it lots of complicated ways but it's a form of insurance or it's a way to make a-- make a bet on some particular financial outcome.

DAVID GREGORY: Critics of-- of you--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: But yeah--

(OVERTALK)

DAVID GREGORY: Yeah, I'm sorry.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --so I wanna come back to a central thing again.

DAVID GREGORY: Yeah?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: What these bills will do, they will make sure if a large institution ever again manages itself to the point where it can't survive on its own and has to come to the government's support, then the government will put it's in-- put it into receivership. It will wipe out shareholders. It will replace management and board and we'll make sure that we wind that firm down. We dismember it. We sell it off so it cannot exist again to make those kind of mistakes in the future. And we'll make-- make sure while we're doing that the taxpayer themselves are-- are not exposed to a penny of loss.

DAVID GREGORY: But Republican critics, including-- minority leader McD-- McConnell says in fact these reforms amount, to his words, an endless taxpayer bailout of banks.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, you know, so--

DAVID GREGORY: Why isn't that true?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: It-- it's absolutely not true. And some of his members say it was a bit over-the-top. I spent a lot of time with Republicans over the last several months and the last few weeks, even last week, end of last week. And I believe that we are very close on this. That we agree on the vast bulk of the things necessary to end too big to fail. Protect taxpayers in the future. And that's one reason why I'm so confident. Now we're not together on everything. I think on derivatives and on consumer protection, we're still some ways apart. And we may not get there. But on too big to fail, on making sure we protect the taxpayer, I think we're very close and we're in broad agreement.

DAVID GREGORY: Do you have any Republicans who will vote for this?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Oh, I-- I'm very confident you'll see Republicans vote for this. Again, you know--

DAVID GREGORY: Do you have anybody now?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, again, that's something that you're gonna-- you'd have to ask them. Ask the-- minority--

DAVID GREGORY: Well, you're--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --leader about--

DAVID GREGORY: --workin'--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --that.

DAVID GREGORY: --'em, right? You're tryin' to bring 'em along?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Yeah, but I spend a lot of time with them. And that's-- again, that's why I'm so confident. I mean, you know, how could anyone look at this crisis, look at the damage caused and say that we're gonna leave this system in place. Not support a strong set of reforms.

DAVID GREGORY: You-- you have been on different sides of this financial crisis. At-- at the Fed and now as Treasury Secretary. I'm curious to know. Do you believe there are rules for Wall Street that could prevent the kind of collapse that we saw?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Absolutely. Absolutely I do.

DAVID GREGORY: That could have prevented it?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Absolutely. You know, we made a series of devastating mistakes as a country. We let large institutions taking on enormous risk ap-- operate in the dark outside of any basic constraints on risk taking. Completely untenable. We let the country come into this crisis without basic tools to put a bank-- put a bank into bankruptcy. A large institution like AIG into bankruptcy.

Those were terrible mistakes. And they are preventable mistakes. And I'm confident, again, with this bill-- this is a very strong bill Senator Dodd has put together. It incorporates a lot of Republican ideas. And I'm very confident with those protections we can reduce the risk of a crisis like this happening and prevent this kind of thing from happening again.

DAVID GREGORY: Do you think you can really change the culture of Wall Street? Can you change the risk taking? All of the-- you know, the-- the search for profits (LAUGHS) that lead to the sort of excesses we saw. Can you really change--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: But--

DAVID GREGORY: --the way they do business?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: If you allow a system to create enormous opportunities for return where people can get the upside without being exposed to the risk, it's gonna attract lots of people. Not the-- not the best kind of people to that business. You can't run a system on the expectation that firms are gonna act in any way other than what they think is their best interest. What you have to do is to make sure that the government is setting rules with teeth that prevent them from taking risks that could imperil the economy as a whole.

DAVID GREGORY: But you-- but you're sometimes criticized as a containment guy instead of a more hard charging roll back Wall Street kind of guy. And I go back to a question I asked in regard to the SEC charges which is is it time to start teaching some people lessons?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, again, the best lesson we can teach and the best we can do for the American people is to put in place rules that will prevent firms from taking these risks again. Make sure we protect the taxpayer. Bring derivatives out of the dark. That's what we can do. That's the best thing we can do for people. And, again, the American people deserve that. I mean you've seen a devastating loss of trust and confidence in this financial system. And we have to work very hard to restore their basic sense of trust and confidence. And the system's gonna provide protections they need.

DAVID GREGORY: The-- there are some-- on Wall Street who have worked with this administration and some who are critical who say the view from you, from the President and others in the administration, largely driven by politics is it's open season on the banks. Beat up on the banks time. Is that the smart thing to do politically or for the economy?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: There's no politics in this. This is not a partisan thing. This is a basic proposition. Things that are important

DAVID GREGORY: It's not good politics to beat up on the banks?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: I don't know if it's good politics or not. We're gonna do what's good for the country and what's good policy. That's what the President asked me to come do.

DAVID GREGORY: Right.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: And--

DAVID GREGORY: But you know there's a populist wave in the country against the banks. Jamie Dimon was criticized for going to speak at Syracuse. And a lot of the statements of the administration can contribute to that. Do you think that's unhelpful for the economy?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: You know what the President is gonna do and what he's asked me to do is to make sure are designing reforms that are gonna change what was broken. Protect the American people better in the future. Our judgment is-- he governs this way, David. The President governs this way. You focus on doing the right thing. You let the politics take care of themselves. Now it's not always gonna be popular. People are gonna fight you on these kind of things. But we're gonna focus on doing the right thing.

DAVID GREGORY: Let's talk about the broader economy and really some encouraging news. This is the Wall Street Journal headline this week. "Dow breaks through 11,000. Stocks rise on outlook for the economy. Corporate earnings, individuals still on the sidelines." You are out there talking to people. You see so much. What gives you a reason to be optimistic right now?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, again, you're seeing the numbers. And if you talk to businesses across the country in all industries you see much more confidence today. The economy's growing. It's the private sector that's growing. Private investment is increasing. Exports are stronger. Americans are spending a bit more of their income.

These are very encouraging signs. And I think they should look-- they allow us to be much more confident today that we're gonna come out of this stronger. But, you know, we have to deal in reality too. And the reality still is is that this crisis caused a huge amount of damage. It's gonna take a long time to heal that damage. Americans are still facing enormous pressure, enormous financial challenge. And we're gonna keep working to make sure we're healing what was broken, reinforcing this recovery and we've got some work to do still.

DAVID GREGORY: So and that headline refers to individuals still on the-- the sidelines. You have 8.5 million jobs lost in the course of the recession. In March-- and something that the-- the Fed chairman was concerned about 44 percent of those unemployed in March have been unemployed for six months or more. Is this a jobless recovery?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: I think the economy's just starting to create jobs again. That's gonna continue. Just remember a year ago the economy lost 3/4 of a million jobs in one month of March. And last month the economy created 160,000 new jobs. And I think we're now on a path where you're gonna see sustained job creation. You're gonna see the work week extended. People add hours to their payroll. Incomes start to rise again. More people come back to work. And, again, we have more work to do though to help reinforce that process.

DAVID GREGORY: You don't see the unemployment rate climbing again to say over 10?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: You know, I'm-- I'm not an economist, David, but if you see that happen it'll be because you have more people come back into the workforce now because there's hope again.

DAVID GREGORY: Right.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: But, again, I think that we're in a much stronger position now today than we were three months ago, six months ago. Stronger than we thought. Faster recovery than many people expected because of the actions the President took.

DAVID GREGORY: And yet, you-- you said recently-- you told Matt re-- Lauer on The Today Show recently that the ent rate will be unacceptably high for a long period of time. These are the administration's projections, we'll put 'em up on the screen, for unemployment, all the way out to the fourth quarter of 2010 at 7.9 percent, which is still pretty high. I assume you think that'd be unacceptably high. So what would incentivize companies to build a new factor now or to look ahead and start adding workers? To change and improve upon that outlook?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: We're gonna work to improve on those numbers. That's what we're workin' hard to do and we're tryin' to get Congress to move to put in place a series of new tax incentives for hiring, for business investment. We're tryin' to work to make sure you can stay-- you can keep teachers in the classroom. That we're working to fix schools, fix our roads and bridges, improve infrastructure. There are a range of things we can do like that-- that'll help make this recovery stronger. And as we grow again we see more job creation, not less.

DAVID GREGORY: I wanna ask you about housing, because this is an important area. It's critical in terms of the overall rebound of the economy. The administration had a big program to modify mortgages to be able to keep people in their homes. You had a Congressional oversight committee this week say that the Treasury Department has lagged behind the pace of the-- the crisis. And USA Today reported this on Thursday. "Foreclosure filings rise in spite of aid programs' efforts. Home foreclosures are accelerating and many more people are losing their homes, more than a year after the government launched a program to aid financially distressed borrowers." Mr. Secretary, I've heard you say, "Look, you have to remember how bad things were." Nevertheless, this is a results problem, is it not?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: No, I don't think so. The President's program did the necessary, vital, essential thing which is to bring stability to house prices that were falling off the cliff. Now, as you know, for most people in the country their house is their most financial asset. So by helping stabilize house prices we made an enormous difference in people's basic financial security. The President did that by working with the Fed to help bring down mortgage interest rates, which were at historic lows. Four million Americans have be able to refinance because of that.
And we've also-- and this program (UNINTEL) referred to is designed to help the innocent victims of the sub-prime crisis. And a million Americans today are getting lower monthly payments on their mortgage debt, on average $500 a month, because of the President's program. And we are working very hard to make sure that program reaches more Americans. We announced a series of programs over the last several weeks that--

DAVID GREGORY: But--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --will help the--

DAVID GREGORY: --but --

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --unemployed.

DAVID GREGORY: --well, you're--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Help people

DAVID GREGORY: --trying to now get-- get-- lenders to reduce the principal for people because you have-- and this was always the warning about a mortgage-- remodification. That people redefault.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well--

DAVID GREGORY: And end up getting foreclosed on.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Again-- but you're right to say that the-- the changes we made recently are to help the unemployed. Help people who are underwater refinance. Help make sure that more of the relief comes in the form of principal reduction. And we also gave the 10 hardest hits states, pep-- states at the epicenter of the crisis, the sub-prime crisis, with high unemployment, we gave them a significant amount of resources to help incent pilot programs that'll help address just those problems.

And we're gonna keep workin' to make sure we-- reach more people. But hold on Dave, one more thing. It's very important to recognize that we are not gonna help-- not gonna be able to help, no it's not-- would not be fair for us to ask the American people to help people who were speculating on resources-- on-- on real estate. Or who were just basically irresponsible in their financial decisions. But we're gonna reach more people. And this program has been very effective in brining a measure of stability to a housing market that was in crisis. And in reaching Americans who were the-- the greatest victims of the subprime crisis.

DAVID GREGORY: You think the worst of the foreclose crisis is over?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: I think it's gonna be very hard still. I mean realistically, again, unemployment is very high, as you said. That's the biggest risk now in terms of what's driving forecloses ahead. And that's why, again, it's so important that we work with Congress to strengthen the recovery. Make sure we're creating more jobs-- more quickly.

DAVID GREGORY: This past week was-- tax day and I wanna talk about taxes and spending. But first I wanna ask you what is your level of concern about inflation as you look at ahead perhaps to next year?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Again, our-- our biggest challenge now, and this is a challenge not just in the United States but in all the major economies, is to make sure that-- growth is stronger. We have a recovery led by the private sector that can be self sustaining. That's our biggest challenge.

DAVID GREGORY: When we talk about taxes and spending the debt is a huge concern right now. Right now America's debt is 53 percent of-- the total economy. And deficit hawks like Robert Bixby who you quoted in the Washington Times on Wednesday says this, "The basic challenge is political in that we've gotten into a situation where the spending promises we've made can't be financed with the levels of taxation we've agreed upon."

"Getting out of that dynamic requires either cutting back on the spending promises or raising taxes." Those are politically explosive choices. Will the President have to consider raising taxes on the middle class if he's gonna be serious about taking no the debt?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: As you know the President does not support raising taxes on people making less than $250,000 a year. And the President recognizes that our deficits are too high and they're gonna have to come down over time. But look what he's done when he came into office. He came in and cut taxes, as he should have, on 95 percent of working families. He provided substantial tax incentives to businesses to help stimulate private investment. He's committed to bringing these deficits down. He's outlined a very-- hard, ambitious set of proposals that'll cut our deficits by more than half of the share of our economy over the next four years or so. And he's convinced Republicans to join on a bipartisan fiscal commission to make sure that we can pro-- propose reforms. Identify policies that are--

DAVID GREGORY: But--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --taking us back to where--

DAVID GREGORY: --but is it--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER:

--we're--

DAVID GREGORY: --enough? First of all, he-- he is cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans. He's also raising taxes. The Bush tax cuts will expire. There're tax hikes-- included in-- in the healthcare reform. Look if Pete Domenici --

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, health--

DAVID GREGORY: --doesn't achieve--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --healthcare reform--

DAVID GREGORY: Yes.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --healthcare reform is enormously important and will be enormously important and effective in helping bring down the long-term deficits.

DAVID GREGORY: Well, okay. But there're some-- there's debate about-- even though that's certainly--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: No, but--

DAVID GREGORY: --the assertion about--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: No, but the--

DAVID GREGORY: --how it was passed.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --again, the-- in our country we turn to the independent--

DAVID GREGORY: Right.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --public analysts and the CBO to make those judges. And their judgment-- and this is why we have healthcare reform today because the President wouldn't have it any other way. In their judgment healthcare reform will bring down our long-term deficits dramatically over time.

DAVID GREGORY: Why don't you have to consider additional tax hikes when you've got the likes of Alice Rivlin, who worked for President Clinton, the Republican Senator Domenici -- and Chairman Bernanke saying, "Look, something's gotta give here and tax hikes have to be on the table--"

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: But you--

(OVERTALK)

DAVID GREGORY: --"in this environment."

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --you-- you said the important thing, which is the President is going to extend the middle class tax cuts, but he is also gonna let expire the tax-- the tax cuts that President Bush put in place for the-- two percent of the most fortunate Americans in our country. That will provide more than a trillion dollars-- around a trillion dollars in deficit reduction over the next 10 years. That's very important.

In addition to that, the President proposed a range of other measures to help close tax loopholes. Reforming national tax-- tax treatment of international companies in the United States. He proposed a fee on banks on risk to make sure we cover any losses in the TARP and he proposed a substantial freeze on discretionary spending. Re-imposed the basic budget rules, PAYGO, that were in place in the '90s. Helped deliver surplus--

DAVID GREGORY: But I-- but--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --but--

(OVERTALK)

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: let me just--

DAVID GREGORY: --are any of these serious enough to really tackle the trajectory--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well--

DAVID GREGORY: --that our debt is on?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Absolutely. And, you know, David, let me just step back for a second. This is something we can manage as a country. Again, just think about it this way. A-- even a moderate recovery and-- a moderate recovery along with the President's commitment to make sure the Recovery Act expires. The emergency acts we took expire when the-- when the economy strengthens. Those two actions themselves will cut our deficits in half as a share of the economy. Bringing 'em down from 10 percent of-- of the share of GDP to around five percent of GDP. Now that's not far enough. The other measures that you just identified will take us down below four percent of GDP. And we've asked the commission to-- which is a very talented group of people--

DAVID GREGORY: This is your debt commission?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --to step back from politics--

DAVID GREGORY: Right.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --and recommend additional measures that--

(OVERTALK)

DAVID GREGORY: But do you believe painful choices will be necessary--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well--

DAVID GREGORY: --by the government?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --of course they will. But you--

DAVID GREGORY: Without a doubt?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --but-- but of course these are things we can do as a country. Again, we are in a much stronger position to deal with these challenges. And it's true for any major economy--

DAVID GREGORY: What's a painful--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --and culture.

DAVID GREGORY: --choice you would advocate to the President if he wants to be really serious about tackling the debt?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, the-- the President is-- has made some very important and I think good policy proposals in-- to the Congress already to consider that are very substantial and we hope they act on them.

DAVID GREGORY: Any specific thing though that you would--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Just the ones--

DAVID GREGORY: --advocate?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --again, the ones I highlighted. It's a very--

DAVID GREGORY: Is there anything regard to entitlement spending? Medicare? Social Security, that you would advocate? Tax reform? Broad based tax reform?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Well, we're gonna look at all those things. And the commission-- of course the commission and its-- its basic mandate is this. Is to step back from politics, take a look at all those things and-- and come forward with recommendations--

DAVID GREGORY: Right.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --that'll help return us to the point where when we're living-- where we're living within our means again as a country.

DAVID GREGORY: Two quick points before-- we're out of time. Would the President support a gas tax if it were part of a-- overall climate change-- piece of legislation?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: David, that's not something I can address today. As you know, he is working with-- a number of Senators to try to make sure we can put in place the kind of energy reforms our country needs. If you talk to businesses across the country one thing many of them agree on is we need to bring-- certainty to what the rules of the game are and how we-- how we use energy. Make sure we're encouraging greater energy efficiency. Not just for climate change but because it's important for energy independence. And the President is gonna keep working on that.

DAVID GREGORY: And so is he looking at it-- at a-- gas tax?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Yes. Again not--

DAVID GREGORY: Is he considering it?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --not something that I can help you on today. But we are workin' on making sure we change how we use energy in this country, both for the energy independence and to make sure we're using it more efficiently for climate change.

DAVID GREGORY: Finally, before I let you go, as I mentioned it was tax day. You also saw these tea party rallies around the country. And it seems that their biggest grievance, those who show up to these rallies, have to do with taxes, with government spending, with the size of the deficit. How serious do you take those concerns? How viable a political force do you consider--

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Let--

DAVID GREGORY: --the Tea Party to be?

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: --let me-- let me do the positive side of this. Okay? We've-- just been through eight years where people said-- many people said, "Deficits don't matter. We can-- we can pass huge tax cuts, pass huge new programs without paying for them." That debate has changed fundamentally.

Now you don't hear people say anymore, "Deficits don't matter." You don't hear people saying that we can pass enormously-- enormous expansion of government without paying for it. That's an important change. I think all Americans understand that our deficits are unsustainable. And I think that'll be helpful as we move to try to make the hard choices to bring them down again.

DAVID GREGORY: Mr. Secretary, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much.

TIMOTHY GEITHNER: Good to see you, David.