We begin with President Obama‘s strategy to push through health care reform. Congressman Gerry Connolly‘s a Democrat from Virginia and Congressman Thaddeus McCotter is a Michigan Republican. Gentlemen, thank you.

Let me take a look right now at the president‘s proposal, gentlemen. It‘s largely based on the Senate bill. First, it gets rid of the so-called "Cornhusker kickback." Second, it sends more Medicaid money to the states. Third, it ends the so-called doughnut hole for the Medicare prescription drug benefit. And Fourth, it raises the excise tax threshold on Cadillac plans. And fifth, it creates a federal authority to oversee insurance rates.

Well, gentlemen, the question now is, does the president have a plan -

Congressman Connolly, does he have a position where he‘s going to stand and fight for it, jam it through the Senate, if he has to?

REP. GERRY CONNOLLY (D), VIRGINIA: Well, I think he does have a plan. I think he‘s made a real nod toward the Republican and to the moderate critics of what was in the House plan and some elements in the Senate plan. I think he‘s laid his cards on the table, and I think it‘s time for everybody else to do the same.

MATTHEWS: Congressman McCotter, it seems to me that the Republicans are suspicious of what he‘s up to, that this looks more like a public relations event just to make it clear the Republicans won‘t play ball, rather than to cut a deal.

Here‘s one of your leaders, Mike Pence, talking about it. He‘s from Indiana, of course. He‘s one of the top Republicans. Here he is on "Meet the Press." I think he lays it out pretty clearly here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE PENCE ®, INDIANA: Republicans are ready to work, but what we can‘t help but feel like here is the Democrats spell summit S-E-T-U-P. And all this is going to be is some media event...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.

PENCE: ... used as a preamble to shove through "Obama-care" 2.0, and we‘re not going to have any of that!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, that‘s clearly rehearsed material. He didn‘t think up that line on the air sitting there on "Meet the Press." But that‘s the question. Does your party think it‘s a setup, that it‘s not really a summit?

REP. THADDEUS MCCOTTER ®, MICHIGAN: Well, I think we‘re increasingly concerned that when you have the president negotiating with himself what type of bill he can meld between a bad House bill and a bad Senate bill, you see talk of reconciliation, and you hear talk of taking Republican ideas, putting them onto this bill, which still would not render it, in our mind, necessarily helpful, what you‘re looking at is a great concern that we‘re being set up to be blamed for the process of reconciliation, which Senator Reid, again, has already said is likely in the cards.

MATTHEWS: Wow. Congressman Connolly, is it just a plain fact that you can‘t square a circle, that Republicans don‘t really believe in finding a way to cover 30 million more people and insuring them through, basically, a public program?

CONNOLLY: That‘s right. I think, you know, I have an old friend Jim Bourne (ph), a humorist, used to say, If you‘re going to be a phony, at least be sincere about it. You know, the Republicans laid out a bill-allegedly, a bill earlier this year that covered 3 million Americans. Our bill covers 36 million. They didn‘t even address the issue of preexisting conditions.

You know, it‘s time for them to show their hand, and frankly, to do what‘s best in the interests of all Americans. And I don‘t think this is designed-the Thursday summit is designed to embarrass, I think it‘s designed to engage. The president‘s made a good faith effort to do that. It‘s now time for the Republicans to make a good faith effort in return.

MATTHEWS: But was I right in my beginning of the program where I said, Congressman Connolly, that the real goal of the president is to simply get past the Republicans by giving them the formality of a summit, so that he can then go out and have a press conference Friday morning at the White House, where he controls the press pool and-he controls access to them, I should say-and then he just simply announces that, I tried, and now I‘m going to go ahead and push this thing through the Senate? We‘ll get the House to pass the Senate bill, the Senate to pass a reconciliation bill by a majority vote. Joe Biden will do his part, pass it, and then we‘ll have a bill.

Isn‘t that what, really, your party‘s plan is right now?

CONNOLLY: No. I wish my party had a plan right now. That may be on some people‘s minds, but the truth of the matter is, we want to work with Republicans for health care reform. We want them at the table. We want them participating. Here is their chance to do that.

MATTHEWS: Congressman McCotter, I want you to respond to Gibbs. He‘s

Robert Gibbs, of course, the press secretary to the president. I think he‘s pretty much laying it out here that they‘re going to go for reconciliation, that 50-50 vote in the Senate. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The American people want Republicans and Democrats to work together on health care reform. That‘s our goal for Thursday. I think it‘s premature to get ahead of what happens on Friday before Thursday.

HELEN THOMAS, HEARST COLUMNIST: ... (INAUDIBLE) how many months on this? Why can‘t you say yes or no?

GIBBS: Well, I think I answered-I think I answered Jeff‘s question. But Helen, I...

THOMAS: No, you didn‘t...

(CROSSTALK)

GIBBS: Again, I don‘t think it‘s...

THOMAS: ... is he for reconciliation or not?

GIBBS: Well, the avenue exists if one wants to pursue it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, I‘ve never heard a better statement, Congressman McCotter, than, "The avenue exists if one wants to pursue it." He clearly sees the avenue being available to the White House of a majority vote in the Senate, jam it through by reconciliation. Clearly, they‘re laying out the path, and whether they‘re going to take it or not is a matter of timing, I think. What are your thoughts?

MCCOTTER: Well, Chris, as you know, the Republicans were painfully

put in the minority in 2006, a deeper minority in 2008. And the reason

that a health care bill hasn‘t been signed into law by the president of the

United States is not the Republicans. It is the divisions within the

Democratic Party itself, both within the House and Senate and both between

and between both chambers.

And more importantly, it is the American public, as we saw in the Massachusetts election. This is not what you would call a deep red state. So I think that the message from the American people is they want us to start from scratch, find a common principle that we can build upon, and then take it from there.

So with all due respect to my colleague, the problem is not the Republican Party. It is the American people do not want it, and individual Democrats in the Congress have voted against it.

MATTHEWS: Mr. Connolly?

CONNOLLY: Chris, I would just say two things. One is we have the statement of Senator Jim DeMint of South Carolina, who said before he even knew what the content of the bill was, We need to defeat health care. It could be President Obama‘s Waterloo. That‘s about politics, not about substance.

Secondly, the sanctimony one hears about reconciliation is a little bit much. Reconciliation has been used 22 times. I worked here in the Senate when Ronald Reagan was president in August of 1981. He used reconciliation, as did the Republicans, to embrace and to enact his entire economic budget and tax program. So this isn‘t new. It‘s provided by statute. And the Republican hands are not clean on this subject.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, Congressman McCotter, is there any plan that the Republicans would ever support, that you‘d support, that would provide health care insurance for the 30 million people, 36 million, 50 million, however you count it, who are not insured right now? Is there any Republican plan to do that? Not to get rid of-have tort reform or interstate competition for insurance, but to do that thing that Democrats have set their heart on? Do you have your heart set on that, covering the uninsured?

MCCOTTER: Yes, we all have a passionate concern for the uninsured, Chris. But the problem is, is Republicans believe that allowing the market to increase supply, consumer-driven, patient-centered wellness to reduce the costs, will make it easier for those costs to come down and become accessible to people. In the alternative, what we have is a proposal that will have government controlling supply in a time of rising demand. That will lead to either less of a supply dictated by government or it will lead to higher costs.

MATTHEWS: But-but...

MCCOTTER: So we do have...

MATTHEWS: But Congressman, here‘s my problem. With all due respect, the Republicans have had complete power, like the Democrats at least have informally now-you‘ve had the presidency and two houses of Congress-and you never do what you just described. You always wait for the Democrats to offer a health care plan, and then say you‘ve got a better one. But you never offer one when you have the power.

MCCOTTER: With all due respect, Chris, we did not control the United States Senate. We did not have a filibuster-proof majority to do as we please. And in appreciation for their deft maneuvering, it was the Democratic senators that helped to block up much of what we passed over there, such as tort reform or association of health plans. We never had what was evident with the Senate-what the Senate Democrats had prior to the election of Senator Brown, again, from Massachusetts, a very blue state, which was total control to the pass what you agreed upon.

MATTHEWS: When did you ever come through with a Republican plan advanced by a Republican president, advanced by Republican leadership, to extend health care coverage to the tens of millions of people who don‘t have it? When have you ever done that? I can‘t find-Nixon tried to do something back in the ‘70s, which I really think is great, but nobody went along with that, including the Democrats or the Republicans, which was an employer mandate. You would probably oppose an employer mandate right now.

MCCOTTER: Again...

MATTHEWS: Wouldn‘t you?

MCCOTTER: I was 8 years old in the Nixon administration...

MATTHEWS: You‘re against the principle, aren‘t you? Well, no, no.

You know the history.

MCCOTTER: We are for...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You‘re against the principle...

MCCOTTER: We are for the...

MATTHEWS: ... of forcing people to have health care insurance.

MCCOTTER: What you want-yes. I do not believe that the United States, under the interstate commerce clause, the power to regulate health insurance, should be able to dictate that individuals buy a good or service. I think that‘s antithetical to the Constitution. It‘s antithetical to the choices that people have around them and are entitled to as American citizens.

MATTHEWS: OK.

MCCOTTER: So no.

MATTHEWS: We have car insurance, don‘t we?

MCCOTTER: We have car insurance at the state level.

MATTHEWS: Yes, we have...

(CROSSTALK)

CONNOLLY: Chris, can I...

MATTHEWS: You can‘t drive a car in your state without insurance.

MCCOTTER: If you want the government to dictate what people will and will not do with regards to their health care, that is your right as an American citizen to take that position.

MATTHEWS: OK. OK.

MCCOTTER: I fundamentally disagree with that. I would like to see free market and empowerment of patients to make their own choices.

MATTHEWS: OK.

CONNOLLY: Can I-can I just...

MATTHEWS: Congressman Connolly, last word. Yes, sir?

CONNOLLY: That‘s exactly what the current system is, what my good colleague from Michigan has just said. It‘s not working. Tell how good that‘s working to the folks who are on Anthem Blue Cross in California who just saw 39 percent increases in their premium. And more and more, not less and less, Americans are, in fact, losing their health care coverage. That‘s why we‘re talking about reform.

MCCOTTER: As Mr. Manhugh (ph) has talked about...

CONNOLLY: And by the way-and by the way, dictating health care? It‘s bureaucrats and health insurance companies who are dictating health care in this country, and that‘s wrong and it needs reform.

MCCOTTER: What‘s dictating and what‘s wrong in the country, as has been pointed out by Rasmussen, is that only 21 percent think they‘re being governed with their consent. To go around the express wishes of the American people...

MATTHEWS: OK...

MCCOTTER: ... I would argue on this instance of health care dictation from the federal government, would do very great damage to both the social and political fabric of the country. Now, I would encourage my colleague to go out and tell his constituents, especially in the senior centers, how he voted to cut half a trillion from seniors‘ Medicare. I‘m content to...

MATTHEWS: OK, I just want...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I love this Libertarian view, but I don‘t believe in it because if somebody gets hurt in a car accident, they expect the ambulance to come and pick them up and take them to the hospital without asking for the money. I‘m telling you...

MCCOTTER: We do not...

MATTHEWS: ... in the end...

MCCOTTER: We do not have a Libertarian view. What I love is your leftist view that somehow, government can do everything and not raise the cost of anything...

MATTHEWS: No, I‘m just saying...

MCCOTTER: ... and everything is free.

MATTHEWS: No, it‘s not my leftist view, it‘s that we expect the community to...

MCCOTTER: That is the problem with your point.

MATTHEWS: ... look out for the individual.

MCCOTTER: Your argument is with the American people.

CONNOLLY: No, it‘s not.

MCCOTTER: They rejected your plan and we‘ll...

CONNOLLY: The American people don‘t want us to do nothing.

(CROSSTALK)

MCCOTTER: That is not what we are advocating, again. We have our...

CONNOLLY: The American people want...

MCCOTTER: ... proposal. Go to GOP.gov.

CONNOLLY: ... something done...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Gentlemen, we have found the center of the hurricane. The heart of this challenge is the question of whether the federal government should take responsibility for trying to insure all Americans as best as can. The Republican view is the answer is no. The Democratic view is the answer is yes. This couldn‘t be clearer, gentlemen. You‘ve made it clear. Thank you. Congressman Gerry Connolly...

CONNOLLY: Thank you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: ... and Congressman Thaddeus McCotter. Thank your clarifying. If you didn‘t get that debate, you didn‘t get it. That‘s the heart of it. The Republican Party believes in laissez-faire market solutions. The Democratic Party believes there‘s a public responsibility to ensure people for their own good.