CHRIS MATTHEWS: We begin with the stunning victory by Republican Scott Brown up in Massachusetts.

We‘re joined right now by White House senior aide David Axelrod. David, why don‘t you-it‘s a big day in American politics. Let‘s take a look at what the Republicans are saying right now about what happened in Massachusetts in that Senate race yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: Last night, a shot was fired around this nation, a shot was fired saying, No more business as usual in Washington, D.C.!

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), MINORITY LEADER: You‘ve heard what the Speaker said yesterday and what the majority leader said-We‘re going to find some way to push this over the line. It‘s that kind of arrogance that has the American people about ready to pull their hair out and about ready to throw every Democrat out of here.

REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), MINORITY WHIP: The election last night in Massachusetts for Senator-elect Brown was much about an election that rejected arrogance. Much like David in his fight against Goliath...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Wow. They seem to have their plan down. It‘s arrogance. Arrogance was defeated in Massachusetts yesterday. Your take on what you learned yesterday, David Axelrod.

DAVID AXELROD, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISER: Well, what I learned, Chris, is what I learned to some degree November of 2008 and the two years that I traveled with Barack Obama, and that is that middle class people, hard-working people are being squeezed in many different ways. And they‘ve seen their jobs disappear. They‘ve seen their wages stagnant. Expenses are growing. Health care, by the way, you know, has been growing exponentially.

And this is enormously aggravating when they look to Washington, they look to Wall Street, they see special interest hegemony here in this town. And the want people to fight for them. And that‘s why we‘re here.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

AXELROD: But-and we‘re going to continue that fight. But we are the person in charge now, and obviously, we‘re going to become the fulcrum of some of that aggravation.

MATTHEWS: But you had a Democratic candidate for the Senate up there, Martha Coakley, the attorney general, much respected. She was, you could argue, to the left of President Obama on health care. She was for that public option, no matter what. She was going to go all the way with it, along with the netroots and some of the people on the progressive side of things, very assertively saying the things I would think the president would generally support. She was a classic Democratic candidate.

Why did she get walloped in a state that‘s been voting for Democrats as long as I can remember for Senate and House races?

AXELROD: Well, look, I‘m not going to disparage General Coakley, who‘s a god person. But let‘s give some credit to Scott Brown. He ran a terrific campaign. He tapped into that zeitgeist that I talked about, that sense on the part of everyday people that they‘re not getting a fair shake. And he spoke to it. So I think that has a lot to do with it. He ran a very good campaign. I think that Democrats were a little late to get to-to send up the flares in responding to that challenge.

But there is no doubt that we have a lot of agitation out there and a lot of aggravation, and how could we not? I told the president, Chris, a year ago, when we sat down and heard the economic forecast from our economic advisers, I said, You know, you got some great numbers, admire them now because a year from now, they‘re not going be nearly this good. You can‘t govern in an economy like this when so many people are struggling and not, as the person in charge, bears some of that with you.

And we had to do some very difficult things to get this economy moving again-the recovery package, stabilizing the banks, stabilizing the auto industry. None of that was popular. We knew it wasn‘t popular, but the president did it because the consequences of not doing would have been a much larger catastrophe for the country. But you pay a political price for that.

It is very important that-for middle class people that they have some leverage against insurance companies, and we pursued health reform, health insurance reform. But the long process-the long, tedious process here in Washington-underscored in people‘s minds some of their worse sensibilities about the town, and that, I think, was felt, as well.

So there are a lot of factors in here. We‘re obviously very cognizant of them. But the most important thing we can do is move forward, fighting for people, fighting to create jobs, fighting to raise salaries, fighting to get people a fair shake in this economy.

MATTHEWS: How do you shake this-it may be local. I mean, I know Massachusetts politics, and I know you know it. A lot of this was local. They didn‘t like the party establishment. They thought they‘d been around too long and took it for granted. A lot of that had nothing to do with the White House.

But this arrogance tag-when Democrats get accused of cultural or economic arrogance, of being the insiders, of being in with Wall Street, it seems to me the Democrats are dead. They have to own that issue of populism, of economic-We‘re for the little guy, the middle guy...

AXELROD: Well, look...

MATTHEWS: ... trying to take on the...

AXELROD: Chris...

MATTHEWS: How did the Republican guy with a truck grab from you-they grabbed Jack Kennedy from the Democrats! He‘s riding around in that truck with Jack Kennedy‘s movies, saying he-I‘m like Jack Kennedy. How the hell did you guys let him steal your bacon?

AXELROD: Well...

MATTHEWS: I‘m sorry. It wasn‘t you It wasn‘t you, the Democratic Party.

AXELROD: No, no, no, no. But I-look, I agree with you. As I said, I think we were a little late to recognize the potency of his threat. And he was a very good candidate and he tapped into a lot of things here.

But let‘s talk for a second about what‘s going on in this town because it‘s fine for-for some folks in the Republican Party to stand up and say, you know, they‘re going to stand up for the little guy, but it really matters what you do. If you-we‘re fighting, for example, to put a fee on banks so that we can get all the money back from the TARP program that the Republican administration started to stabilize the bank system.

MATTHEWS: Right.

AXELROD: We helped them out in their time of need. They‘re doing well now. They ought to give this money back. The Republican Party is lining up with the banks.

We‘re fighting to rein in the worst excesses of the insurance industry, that throws people off of insurance when they get sick, that deprives people with preexisting conditions of insurance, that raises premiums-they‘ve doubled in the last decade alone.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

AXELROD: They‘re standing with the insurance companies. So they can talk the talk, but when it comes time to walking the walk, they don‘t do it. And I‘m happy to have that contest next November, and if the president chooses to run in 2012, and we‘ll see who the real deal is when it comes to standing up for working people.

MATTHEWS: What about health care? It seems to me that you‘ve got fewer options. You have 59 senators now. But it seems like there is a possible route to passing a big bill before you have to retreat and perhaps go incrementally.

One option might be-I‘ve heard about this. I‘ll run it by you now. And I talked about it last night, optimistically. You get the House leadership to get 218 votes for the Senate bill with the clear proviso that this issue will be revisited this spring with a major reconciliation bill that uses the opportunity in the procedure of reconciliation to address the concerns of the progressive Democrats and others in the caucus. Do it with two steps and walk away with a big win. Is that still possible?

AXELROD: Well, Chris, I‘m not going to talk about the various possibilities because they‘re under discussion right now. And obviously, members of Congress are speaking among themselves and with their leaders about where they think they are. We‘re talking to them.

Here‘s what I believe, though. And you‘ve been around politics all your life. I think the worst possible outcome would be for us to walk away from this now because what exists right now is a caricature of this legislation.

MATTHEWS: Exactly.

AXELROD: People really don‘t understand what‘s in the bill. And so we‘ll get all the downside of having supported this and none of the upside of the reality of what it really is. If they pass this bill, next November, every-every Democratic candidate who supported it, or any Republicans who come to their senses, would be able to say, I was the one who made sure that people with preexisting conditions get covered. I was the one who gave seniors more prescription protection. I was the one who extended the life of Medicare and capped out-of-pocket expenses.

And so, you know, there‘s a range of things that will become law when the president signs this bill, not in four years, but immediately, that we can campaign on. But if we don‘t pass the bill, then it‘s going to live as a negative caricature in people‘s minds.

MATTHEWS: OK.

AXELROD: Terrible mistake.

MATTHEWS: OK, here‘s my advice. It‘s worth what I give you. It‘s free, and maybe it‘s worth that. But it seems to me that this administration is perceived to be activist when it comes to government, progressive, if you will. It believes in positive government. The only question-and that question will be the same in November. The voters know that about your administration. You do believe trying to do good things at the federal level and get things done for the country. The only question is whether, open to the voters between now and November-is not whether you‘re progressive or not, it‘s whether you‘re effective or not, if you succeed or not.

AXELROD: Right.

MATTHEWS: So you might as well go for it. That‘s my thought. Thank you, David Axelrod.

AXELROD: All right. OK. Good to be with you, Chris.

MATTHEWS: It‘s great to have you on. Thank you for coming on

HARDBALL.

AXELROD: OK.

MATTHEWS: Coming up: Does Scott Brown‘s victory up in Massachusetts mean that health care reform is dead, or can the Democrats come up with a Plan B to keep it alive? We‘re talking about that. We just did with Axelrod. Let‘s talk about it with former DNC chair, former governor of Vermont, Howard Dean, one of the guys who started this whole health care push years ago.

You‘re watching HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Does Scott Brown‘s victory up in Massachusetts mean that health care reform is dead? House Speaker Nancy Pelosi insisted today that it would pass still. Let‘s listen to the Speaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Heeding the particular concerns of the voters of Massachusetts last night-we heard. We will heed. We will move forward with their considerations in mind, but we will move forward for health care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: OK. But Republicans, emboldened by their Massachusetts win up there, are branding the Democrats as arrogant for trying to push reform through. And what‘s more, Democrats from Senator Russ Feingold to Jim Webb down in Virginia to Claire McCaskill out in Missouri are now saying it‘s time to slow down a bit, go incrementally. So is there a way forward for health care reform?

We‘ve got the expert here in Howard Dean, the former chairman, of course, of the Democratic National Committee and former governor of Vermont. How do you do it? How do you win now with 59 senators, not 60?

HOWARD DEAN (D-VT), FORMER GOV., FORMER DNC CHAIR: Oh, I actually think we might do better.

MATTHEWS: OK...

DEAN: You know, 60 didn‘t do us very well.

MATTHEWS: Pull the rabbit out of your hat. Pull the rabbit out. How do you do it? I mean it.

DEAN: There‘s a couple of ways. One, you can put an incremental bill through, if the House votes for the Senate bill. I think that‘s not likely. I don‘t see a Senate bill passing with 59 votes. I just don‘t see that unless you get so incremental that you‘re really not doing much. And the other thing you can do is go through reconciliation, which we should have done in the first place. Senator Conrad‘s the chairman of the Budget Committee. He‘s indicated that he might be willing to do that. You‘re not going to do entire health care reform...

MATTHEWS: You think you can get 50 Democrats to vote for that?

DEAN: We‘ve had 51 Democrats since day one to do a lot more than...

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) people like Blanche Lincoln and the other-and...

DEAN: No, I think you‘d lose Ben Nelson...

MATTHEWS: ... Pryor, Landrieu...

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: You‘d lose her. You‘d lose...

MATTHEWS: Both Nelsons?

DEAN: I think Bill Nelson...

MATTHEWS: Would you have 51 after what happened yesterday?

DEAN: Yesterday, the problem was that people wanted more. We did a poll-Democracy for America did a poll. Eighteen percent of the people who voted for Scott Brown voted for Barack Obama. Of those 18 percent, three out of five wanted a public option. They thought they didn‘t go far enough. Of the Obama voters that we polled that stayed home, 80 percent wanted a public option. So this is-the problem here...

MATTHEWS: Just a minute. Just a minute, Governor. There‘s two facts on the table right now.

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: The Democratic candidate was for the public option. She was very aggressive, very progressive.

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: Martha Coakley was much more progressive than the president. She stuck to the line, I want an individual mandate and I want a public option, period. She said it right through the end, never-never broke from that. So she took the position you‘re advocating now...

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: ... and a lot of people (INAUDIBLE) The other guy said, I‘m going to kill it in its bed. The voters voted for the guy who said, I‘m going to kill it...

DEAN: These guys...

MATTHEWS: So they had an choice between the public option candidate and kill it, and they voted kill it. So how do you explain this?

DEAN: These voters were sending a message to Washington. They asked for change, but they haven‘t...

MATTHEWS: But she said...

DEAN: ... gotten change.

MATTHEWS: ... I want to give you the public option...

DEAN: We‘ve had a year of...

MATTHEWS: ... and they said no to her!

DEAN: ... dealing with every...

MATTHEWS: Governor, this is...

DEAN: ... interest group, the banks...

MATTHEWS: You‘re whistling past the graveyard here!

DEAN: ... the insurance companies-I don‘t think so.

MATTHEWS: She ran for the public option.

DEAN: Our polling shows what it shows.

MATTHEWS: But she‘s for the public option and she got blown away!

DEAN: People who were for the-voted for the public-who are for the public option...

MATTHEWS: Why didn‘t they vote for the candidate of the public option, then?

DEAN: Because they wanted to send Washington a message. They want real change.

MATTHEWS: How about voting for a candidate who supports a position more progressive than the president?

DEAN: They want real change.

MATTHEWS: Wouldn‘t that have done it.

DEAN: Chris, they want real change.

MATTHEWS: Wouldn‘t that have done it?

DEAN: You know voters as well as I do, and you know...

DEAN: No, I‘m just saying, if I go out there and say...

DEAN: The voters wanted to send...

MATTHEWS: ... I‘m further-I‘m more progressive than the president, vote for me-and that was Martha Coakley‘s position and they said no. And the other guy comes along and says, Forget it. I‘m voting to kill it. OK. He‘s calling himself Mr. 41. This guy-this guy, this candidate, Scott Brown, is walking around, signing his name Scott Brown 41. I‘ll be the 41 guy who votes for the filibuster.

DEAN: There are a lot of people outside Washington that don‘t think that bill ought to pass because it‘s too watered down, because it‘s basically...

MATTHEWS: But not Martha Coakley! She was all the way for a progressive...

DEAN: You‘re being silly!

MATTHEWS: ... public option. What?

DEAN: Chris, because you know very well what voters do. Voters were sending a message to Washington, We don‘t want business as usual. That‘s what they were sending the message about.

MATTHEWS: How do you know that?

DEAN: Because we polled.

MATTHEWS: But the poll that was...

DEAN: American Research Group.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... official poll, where people had to go into the booth and voted, they had a choice between a public option candidate and a no candidate. How do you explain that decision?

DEAN: I just did. You can‘t know what people do in the booth unless you ask them. We asked them overnight, and we found out that of the Obama supporters who either stayed home or voted for Scott Brown, they overwhelmingly wanted to do more on health care, not less.

MATTHEWS: So they were more progressive than the president.

DEAN: This is not a surprise in Massachusetts.

MATTHEWS: No, were they more progressive than the president?

DEAN: That‘s correct.

MATTHEWS: So on all the issues raised in the campaign-debt, taxes, the arrogance of power, the Democratic Party in Massachusetts, all those issues-where were the voters?

DEAN: The voters were upset...

MATTHEWS: Where were they on all those issues?

DEAN: They were upset by Washington as usual, dealing with special interests, writing a bill that was great for the insurance industry, not doing much about the bankers...

MATTHEWS: Well, that is your position.

DEAN: That is not my position. That is the voters of Massachusetts.

MATTHEWS: You‘ve just defined-you‘ve just said the voters of Massachusetts agree with you, but they voted Republican. That makes no sense.

DEAN: Oh, it does make...

MATTHEWS: If you had been in the voting booth, would you have voted for Scott Brown? Would you have done this?

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Of course not.

MATTHEWS: Well, well-oh. But you rationally would not have voted for the conservative Republican, because he‘s against health care.

But you say the voters are irrational. They somehow sent smoke signals in their voting. They vote for a conservative Republican who is totally against health care to tell the country they want a progressive health care program.

That is crazy.

DEAN: We know what they did.

MATTHEWS: Are voters crazy? Are voters crazy?

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Chris, there‘s only one crazy person around here. And I may hold up a mirror and you may see him in a minute. But don‘t be silly.

MATTHEWS: But you mean that voters-voters vote right-wing Republican to express progressive values?

I don‘t understand...

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: First of all, Scott Brown did not campaign as a right-wing Republican.

MATTHEWS: He said, I will kill health care.

He ran against taxes.

DEAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: He subscribed to a more older version of Democratic liberalism. He was with Jack Kennedy and tax-cutting back in the ‘60s.

DEAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: He pulled back the clock and said, OK, I‘m back there. He rode around in the truck and established himself as a populist against the big shots, against the arrogant Democratic establishment of Massachusetts.

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: And it worked. I‘m just looking at the results. I‘m not cheering them. I‘m looking at them. And you are not looking at them. You are saying, no matter who won.

Suppose Coakley had won. You would have said that was a victory for progressive Democrats, wouldn‘t it?

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: No, I would have said, thank God the right person won.

MATTHEWS: OK. In other words, if she wins, that‘s a victory for your side. If she loses, that‘s a victory for your side.

DEAN: No, I don‘t think it‘s a victory for our side.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You said that your side won, because the polling showed the people...

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Chris, I haven‘t hardly said anything. You have used up all the airtime in this interview.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I will let you say it again. Why do you believe that Martha Coakley‘s defeat meant people wanted a progressive health care bill?

DEAN: I think people are sending a strong message to Washington. They want strong leadership. They want real change. And they don‘t want to accommodate the special interests.

And they think, for the last year, that the Democrats have accommodated special interests, not just in health care, but in the banking industry and in Wall Street and these other areas as well.

MATTHEWS: So, if you are Scott Brown, and he is listening to this program, he is learning from you that what he really ought to do is back a public option, because people, when they voted for him, were really, secretly for the progressive position, not for him, his position?

Are you saying that is what he should read the voters as saying?

DEAN: I am saying you are being silly. And you know very well they are not saying that.

MATTHEWS: No. Well, should he vote for a public option now that he‘s in the Senate?

DEAN: You know he is not going to do that.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: But the voters told him-you said the polling showed they‘re for that.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Let‘s be real about this for a minute. The public option is dead this year, no matter what happens. It‘s not coming back.

MATTHEWS: It would be in his political self-interests to vote for the public option, you‘re saying, wouldn‘t it be?

DEAN: What I think we ought to do is look forward from this election, Chris.

MATTHEWS: No, but you said the polling showed people are for the public option.

DEAN: Chris, I said what I said. This is silly. We‘re not getting anywhere.

MATTHEWS: No, you are being silly.

DEAN: Do you want to look forward or do you want to look backwards?

MATTHEWS: You are saying that, no matter who wins an election, your argument wins.

DEAN: What I‘m saying is, we need a health care bill, a real health care bill, and we ought to continue...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK. Let‘s talk about tactics. Let‘s get back to where we might agree here.

What is wrong with trying-I tried this with Axelrod. I‘m going to try it with you. Get the House Democrats to tuck it in, take it, pass the Senate bill, as a tactic, move on to a real reconciliation bill this spring, which addresses the concerns of the progressive and others in the Democratic Caucus. Get that passed. Use that-use reconciliation for that, not to create a health care plan. You do that in this bill to fix the problems with it, which you can do with reconciliation.

What is wrong with that approach?

DEAN: I don‘t think there is anything wrong with that approach, depending of course what the fix is. I think they‘re going to have a hard time getting the votes in the House, because I think the progressives are going to be concerned whether...

MATTHEWS: Well, would they rather walk away with nothing?

DEAN: Well, I don‘t know. You have got to ask them.

MATTHEWS: How do you sell-you‘ve been in politics. How do you run for reelection and say, I really tried to do what I believe in, but I blew it?

Isn‘t it better to say, I got most of what I wanted; I will try for more later? I got most of what I wanted; I am going to try for more later, isn‘t that a better reelection campaign?

DEAN: Most of what the verdict in Massachusetts was-is that we would rather have no bill than what we have got. That is what the verdict in Massachusetts...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, they did decide they wanted no bill.

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: They voted for a guy who is going to vote no.

DEAN: That is right.

MATTHEWS: But it is a strange interpretation you‘re lending to this.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: The polls don‘t-the polls are what they are.

MATTHEWS: OK.

DEAN: And you are what you are.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: So, it‘s all-it‘s the 2,000 people that we polled against-against you.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: This guy with the barn coat that said I‘m going to vote to kill the bill won. I would say that the people who are against the bill won.

DEAN: I think that is true.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

DEAN: But don‘t forget there are a lot of people against the bill who are Obama‘s core base voted against Martha Coakley.

MATTHEWS: You know what one of them was? Martha Coakley was with you, and she lost.

DEAN: Yes, well, you know, you‘re welcome...

MATTHEWS: She was totally with Howard Dean, and she lost.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: Well, maybe she was or wasn‘t. I didn‘t follow all the campaign all that closely.

MATTHEWS: She votes exactly like you on this issue, with the progressive position, the public option.

DEAN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: She said she was for that position, and the voters said, no, thank you.

MATTHEWS: Now, you have more charm and charisma. Perhaps you offering yourself in Massachusetts could have done it.

DEAN: I would have been a carpetbagger.

But, listen...

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Governor.

DEAN: ... when I was running, we won our special elections.

MATTHEWS: Run for office.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Would you run for office? Would you run for office?

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: When I was the DNC chair, we were winning those elections.

MATTHEWS: Would you get Pay Leahy to take a break and let you in there?

Governor Howard Dean, a candidate for the United States Senate one of these days.

DEAN: I don‘t think so. That, I don‘t think so.

MATTHEWS: Up next: Does Scott Brown‘s victory mean we‘re going to start hearing more Republicans take on Democratic incumbents in the midterms. Are going to-some of these business type guys come out of the woodwork with trucks going and run against people? We‘re going to see. We‘re going to talk to people when we come back.

Are some of these guys in trouble? We‘re going to talk to the head of recruitment for the National Republican Congressional Campaign Committee coming up.

You are watching HARDBALL with Kevin McCarthy. That‘s how they say it in Massachusetts. Back with HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Yesterday‘s victory up in Massachusetts was a big shot in the arm for Republicans, certainly. What does this mean for the November midterms?

U.S. Congressman Kevin McCarthy is head of recruitment for the National Republican Congressional Committee. He joins us now from Capitol Hill.

So, how many Scott Browns you got, Congressman?

(LAUGHTER)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY ®, CALIFORNIA: Well, we have quite a few already filed.

MATTHEWS: How many trucks do you have?

(LAUGHTER)

MCCARTHY: We are buying a whole new fleet. No. We have quite...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, tell me what about it means to you, the whole thing.

MCCARTHY: Well, what it means to me, I mean, there‘s three big messages.

To me, it means this system works. This political system does work. You can be an underdog. You could come from a state that all 10 congressional districts have elected Democrats. And Scott came across, even won Barney Frank‘s district. And that means, if you ever thought about chance to be a part of this system and change it for what they think would be better, and I believe them, this is the time to run. This is the time to engage.

MATTHEWS: Do you have a sense that the Democratic senators are worried right now? You can smell which way which way winds-or tell which way winds are blowing. Do you think people like Specter and certainly Blanche Lincoln and others on the Senate side are-are, well, scared?

MCCARTHY: Not only just the Senate side-the congressional side.

I heard it on the floor last night between members. I watched it today, this morning, talking to different Democratic members. They‘re nervous. Some of them saw it coming. Some of them were walking up to others and said, you were right. And others were saying, where do we go from here now?

MATTHEWS: What do you make of the word arrogance? I mean, I don‘t know whether it is a talking point put out by your party. But it seems to be true, from my end. I know Massachusetts politics a bit. And I do think the Democrats up there have had a problem over the years of being a little too elite, culture elite, being taken too much with the best sort of academic credentials, and thinking that those somehow entitle you to the biggest jobs. Lower-level jobs entitle you to promotions.

This-apparently, it‘s the first time a Democrat hasn‘t moved up when moving for a higher office in years. They automatically kick them upstairs, from A.G. to senator, that kind of thing. Is it arrogance? Is it cultural, political? What kind of arrogance is it? Your party has been using that word.

MCCARTHY: Well, I think it is a combination.

I think, one, it‘s the policy that is happening in Washington right now. But it is the arrogance and Chicago-style politics and way it is going forward. If you track the movement of the senator-elect Brown, he started moving in the polls right when the Nebraska deal got cut. Then, you found, in the-Florida, the Medicare Advantage deal. That is what the style started coming up. Then you had this whole idea that it‘s supposed to be transparent, but you wouldn‘t even let the cameras into the room.

You know, one thing Americans like, they...

(CROSSTALK)

MCCARTHY: ... an undergo, but they like fairness. They like fairness in the process.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me tell you what I know from Massachusetts. He began to move up when he started going on the air with those really well-done ads showing John Kennedy, back in the ‘60s, the president, who was much more of a centrist, I think it‘s fair to say, than certainly his brother Ted become, much more of a sort of a typical middle-of the-road Democrat, you might say.

And he coming out for tax cuts, which was a revolutionary idea when we still had deficits, to say that this was a way to get rid of the deficits. For him to run on John Kennedy, doesn‘t that seem a little irony-I mean, ironic for your party, to be running on the most popular-perhaps the most popular president, along with Reagan, in the last 50, 100 years, to be using Jack Kennedy to get elected as a Republican?

MCCARTHY: Well, Jack Kennedy talked about tax cuts. I would argue that maybe this party isn‘t where Jack Kennedy was back then. That‘s not the same Democratic Party today.

And I think he ran as an outsider. She ran as part of the establishment. He was willing to campaign, go out to Fenway, even if it‘s cold, and ask somebody for their vote, shake their hand and talk to them.

He became a real person. I mean, the one thing about this election we have to remember, this is an anti-incumbent year. This is anti-Washington. And you don‘t want to be a part of Washington. You want to show you want to be a part of the solution of America to fix the problems.

MATTHEWS: Who is your favorite Red Sox pitcher?

MCCARTHY: Well, it would be Curt Schilling.

MATTHEWS: OK.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Thank you very much. He ought to be at this point. Thank you.

He is not there anymore, but he‘s certainly doing the job for your party.

Thank you, Kevin McCarthy. Congratulations.