CHRIS MATTHEWS: But let‘s start with the health care bill with Dr. Howard Dean. He‘s the former chairman of the DNC, the Democratic National Committee, and of course, the former governor of liberal Vermont.

Now, here you are, sir, joining the right wing...

DR. HOWARD DEAN (D-VT), FORMER DNC CHAIR: Well, they‘ve joined me.

MATTHEWS: ... on this killing field on health care. You will bring this bill down. You will kill it.

DEAN: That is not what I said.

MATTHEWS: Will you kill it?

DEAN: No.

MATTHEWS: OK.

DEAN: I would vote against it if I were in the Senate. Look...

MATTHEWS: Well, that would be important since they need 60 Democrats.

DEAN: Well, they-I mean, there are some alternatives. One thing they can do is strip the bill down. There are some good things in this bill. One is the exchange mechanism they use in Massachusetts. That‘s a good way to buy insurance. Two, there‘s money in there, because of Tom Harkin, for prevention and wellness. Bernie Sanders has some money in there for community health centers. There‘s good stuff in this...

MATTHEWS: What don‘t you want in the bill that‘s in there now?

DEAN: I don‘t want all the goodies to the insurance companies. Here‘s what happened. We were promised that if we-in exchange for putting a ton of money into the insurance companies-which I was willing to do, as long as there were other choices-that, for example, people with preexisting conditions would be able to get insurance. Well, it turns out the insurance companies, in the fine print, can charge 300 percent more for those folks, for older folks, than they can for younger folks. So that‘s not really what happened.

And there‘s case after case-you are mandated under this bill to buy insurance. If you don‘t buy it, you could get fined. And the insurance company can take up to 30 percent out of your premium dollar and pay CEOs $20 million and put the rest in shareholders‘ pockets. This is a bill for insurance companies.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. They can do what if you don‘t do what?

DEAN: The insurance companies are much less effective than Medicare.

They take a ton of money out and put it in non-health-care expenditures.

If you buy a policy, which you now have to do under this bill...

MATTHEWS: Right.

DEAN: ... or pay a fine...

MATTHEWS: Well, some policy.

DEAN: Some policy-the insurance company may take up-even more than 30 percent of the dollars you pay...

MATTHEWS: Well, go to some other insurance company, then.

DEAN: Well, yes, but have you noticed that there aren‘t many insurance companies that get anywhere near the efficiency of Medicare?

MATTHEWS: Well, we don‘t have Medicare for anybody under 65.

DEAN: Well, we could have. And that‘s the point.

MATTHEWS: Well, what government would you like to have pass this bill? Because the government we have right now has 60 Democrats in it, and one of those 60 Democrats them is Joe Lieberman of Connecticut, who refuses to go along with it. So you have 59 Democrats.

DEAN: Yes. And you know what?

MATTHEWS: What are you going to do about it?

DEAN: Well, luckily, there‘s a procedure that‘s been used 23 times in the last 20 years, including recently by George Bush to pass tax cuts. That‘s what should have been done. It wasn‘t done...

MATTHEWS: But you can‘t do any of the reforms in insurance if you do it that route.

DEAN: You don‘t need the reforms in insurance...

MATTHEWS: You‘re not going to do anything on preexisting conditions.

DEAN: Chris, there are no reforms on insurance! That‘s just what I‘m telling you. If you can charge somebody three times as much for an insurance policy, how are they suddenly going to afford it? Even if you now say, Well, the insurance company‘s got to offer it, you can‘t afford it.

MATTHEWS: So you would go-you would go through this reconciliation process and basically rip the Senate apart. You‘d just do that.

DEAN: No, the Senate will-rip the Senate apart? It‘s been used before. It‘s been used-this process has been used 23 times.

MATTHEWS: OK. To create a new federal program like this?

DEAN: Twenty-three times.

MATTHEWS: When has it ever been used to create a federal program?

DEAN: I would use it...

MATTHEWS: No, when has it ever been used to create a federal program as big as a seventh of the American economy?

DEAN: I would simply expand Medicare. That‘s simple. That‘s all you have to do.

MATTHEWS: By reconciliation?

DEAN: Yes. Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: And this would-this would-this would destroy the United States Congress.

DEAN: Why would it destroy the United States Congress?

MATTHEWS: Because the Republicans would simply say...

DEAN: Wait a minute. Chris...

MATTHEWS: ... no more bills will be passed on any other matter.

DEAN: Excuse me. We have used this 23 times before. Bush...

MATTHEWS: Not to create a major national program.

DEAN: A major national program wasn‘t created by George Bush when ran us into trillions of dollars of debt by...

MATTHEWS: Yes, but what program did he create?

DEAN: He created enormous tax cuts of every sort.

MATTHEWS: Right. You‘re missing-you‘re dodging the question.

DEAN: I‘m not dodging the question.

MATTHEWS: You can‘t create Medicare, you can‘t create Social Security by reconciliation.

DEAN: You can‘t create it, but you can expand it.

MATTHEWS: Well...

DEAN: We already have Medicare.

MATTHEWS: ... it isn‘t Medicare if it‘s for young people. Medicare‘s for retirees.

DEAN: Exactly the-all you got to do is change the fine print...

MATTHEWS: OK. You can argue that...

DEAN: ... and lower the age.

MATTHEWS: OK, when...

DEAN: Or, frankly, you could start all over again in two years.

MATTHEWS: This is demagoguery. You know it‘s not going to happen.

DEAN: It could-why not?

MATTHEWS: You know they‘re not going to...

DEAN: Why isn‘t it?

MATTHEWS: They‘re not going to-because it won‘t work in the Senate because it‘ll grind the Senate to a halt.

DEAN: In two years, we‘re not going to...

MATTHEWS: It‘ll destroy the body.

DEAN: We‘re not going to have 65 votes, 60 votes in two years. We‘ll have something closer to 55.

MATTHEWS: You don‘t have 60 now. You have Lieberman aboard.

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: What would you do to Lieberman, if you were leader?

DEAN: Lieberman is not the issue. I think...

MATTHEWS: He‘s not? He‘s 60.

DEAN: No, I mean...

MATTHEWS: He‘s number 60.

DEAN: He can do what he wants. I mean...

MATTHEWS: Is he a Democrat?

DEAN: No. Of course not.

MATTHEWS: What is he?

DEAN: Well, that‘s a good question. You have to ask Joe. Look, I‘m not interested in dissecting Lieberman or anybody...

MATTHEWS: Why are you afraid to take on Lieberman?

DEAN: I‘m not. I‘m hardly afraid to take on...

DEAN: Everybody seems to me-I don‘t know, maybe he‘s good at...

DEAN: Chris...

MATTHEWS: ... fund-raising.

DEAN: I ran against the guy, right? I‘m not-I‘m hardly afraid to take on Joe. Look, the issue is, this doesn‘t...

MATTHEWS: When did you run against him? Oh...

DEAN: For president.

MATTHEWS: I‘m sorry. Back in 2004.

DEAN: That‘s right. This is not about Joe Lieberman. This is about whether we‘re going to have a decent health care bill in the country. Right now in the Senate, we don‘t have one. We have one that does some good things, but it does more bad things than good things.

MATTHEWS: Well, all I know is watching this the last couple weeks, every time it looks like the Senate Democrats are about to unite around 60 Democrats and get something done and beat the filibuster, Joe Lieberman comes up with something over the weekend, usually on a Sunday television show, with all the cameras going, and he says something like, Well, not the public option. No. And, Oh, yes, my staff or whoever put the word out this weekend that said I‘d go along with the buy-in at 55, age 55 for Medicare, that‘s not going either way. He‘s like Lucy in "Peanuts." He holds the football until Charlie Brown‘s about to kick it, and then he drops it. And now you won‘t even take him on!

DEAN: I‘m not interested in discussing Joe Lieberman.

MATTHEWS: I know.

DEAN: I care about health care.

MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) this is it.

DEAN: Look, this is the-the culture in Washington is, Oh, it‘s Joe Lieberman!

MATTHEWS: No, it‘s numbers.

DEAN: It‘s So-and-So!

MATTHEWS: It‘s 60. You know how democracy works?

DEAN: The question is...

MATTHEWS: It‘s the reason you didn‘t get elected president. It‘s numbers. You have to get a certain number. In this case, to stop a filibuster, you need 60 votes.

DEAN: You know what the problem is...

MATTHEWS: Lyndon Johnson was able to do it with Civil Rights. They haven‘t been able to do it because they can‘t...

DEAN: He needed 67...

MATTHEWS: ... unite their own party.

DEAN: ... Lyndon Johnson. I‘ll you what the problem is. The problem is not 60 votes or George-or, you know, whoever, Joe Lieberman, or anybody else.

MATTHEWS: Right.

DEAN: The problem is Democrats aren‘t tough enough.

MATTHEWS: Oh, OK.

DEAN: If we‘d...

MATTHEWS: So it‘s an adjective that‘s missing.

DEAN: If we were-yes. If we were-if we were the Republicans right now, this bill would be done through reconciliation, done, just like Bush did and just like 23 other times it‘s been done.

MATTHEWS: OK.

DEAN: We‘re not tough enough.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you a question. We have 60 Democrats in the Senate. We have 59 plus Lieberman, who‘s an independent, used to be a Democrat. How come none of them are willing to go for reconciliation? They don‘t want to do it.

DEAN: I don‘t know.

MATTHEWS: And you want-you‘re not a senator.

DEAN: I don‘t know.

MATTHEWS: So you know something they don‘t know?

DEAN: When I know is it‘s been done 23 times in the last 20 years, and it works.

MATTHEWS: Not to create a massive national program. It‘s not supposed to be used that way.

DEAN: We‘re not-we don‘t need...

MATTHEWS: Reconciliation-I worked on the Hill on the Budget Committee for years.

DEAN: Right.

MATTHEWS: I know what it‘s for. It‘s to reconcile what Congress passes as legislation with the budget numbers. It‘s not there to create new programs.

DEAN: We don‘t-I‘m not asking to create a new program. I‘m asking just to do just what George Bush did.

MATTHEWS: OK. All right.

DEAN: George Bush had existing tax cuts...

MATTHEWS: OK, let‘s ask...

DEAN: ... and he expanded them.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask a member of the United States Senate. Let‘s put

thank you, Governor Dean.

DEAN: Thank you. It‘s my pleasure.

MATTHEWS: I know where you stand, go with reconciliation. Let‘s bring that up. Senator Mary Landrieu‘s a member of the Appropriations Committee, knows all about the spending on Capitol Hill.

Senator Landrieu, Dr. Dean‘s here with me, making a very hard case, saying that you guys don‘t-aren‘t tough enough, that you won‘t support the use of this procedure called reconciliation. Is he right or wrong? Are you not tough enough?

SEN. MARY LANDRIEU (D), LOUISIANA: He is wrong. We are tough enough. And you are right, Chris, about the process of reconciliation. It is not to be used to create broad additional new federal programs. Yes, it has been used in the past. It might have even been occasionally abused in the past, but you know what its purpose is. It‘s to reconcile budget numbers and to use for deficit reduction, not for the expansion.

The other point-I was listening-I want to make is, there is plenty of reform still left in this bill and there is still plenty to fight for. Medicare will be strengthened. Preventive care will be free for the first time. In my state alone, one million people that do not have insurance today, when this bill passes and goes fully in effect, will have coverage. That is something to fight for.

Look, I don‘t like everything in the bill. There are things I fought for that aren‘t in here. I‘d like more tax cuts to small business. But the fact of the matter is, this is the closest we‘ve come in over 40 years to do something good for the American people, and we shouldn‘t-we shouldn‘t get weak-kneed at this moment.

MATTHEWS: Has it become a bidding auction, where someone like you from Louisiana has been able to get concessions on issues you care about because you‘re a hard vote to get?

LANDRIEU: No. Every senator, all 60 senators submitted lists to Harry Reid, to Max Baucus and to Tom Harkin and to Chris Dodd. Those are the leaders that have managed this for a year. You know how this process works. And we say to them, Look, we‘re getting ready to go into a health care debate. These are some special issues that mean a lot to my state.

In my situation, Chris-and you know this well-we are not a rich state. You know how some states have certain percentages they have to pay towards Medicaid? If you‘re a rich state, you pay more. Like, you pay 50 percent and the federal government pays 50 percent. If you‘re a poor state, you only pay 30 percent.

Well, what happened after Katrina was our numbers were sort of distorted because of all the money that came in temporarily, and we got to be like New York. Well, we‘re not like New York. We‘re still good old Louisiana. And so that‘s all I asked, let us be treated the way we have been for the last 20 years. And that‘s what the leadership agreed.

And number one, it didn‘t buy my vote. That wouldn‘t be enough to get my vote. What is enough for me, does this bill work for the people I represent? Is it the right thing for America? And is it the best we can do under the circumstance? And I‘m convinced all those things are yes.

MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk about political practicality. You‘re a moderate Democrat from Louisiana. Let me ask you this. If some of the people on the left, like Howard Dean, say, Wait it out, get more Democrats in there, try some other route-I am baffled by that because I don‘t know how you‘re going to get more Democratic senators in the election you face next year, where there‘s five open seats and not one I can see a Democrat being favored in, whether it‘s Ohio, Missouri, Kentucky or even New Hampshire. I don‘t see a Democrat actually favored in those seats in this environment.

Do you think it‘s likely the Democrats will ever have more than 59 Democrats in the Senate, and one difficult independent named Joe Lieberman? Will you ever have a better deal where you can pass health care?

LANDRIEU: Chris, in the near future, I don‘t think we‘re going to have a better lineup than we have now. And you know, Senator Lieberman has helped us on dozens and dozens of votes where we needed 60 votes, and he‘s been there. He just has a little different view than many in the party. But actually, I understand his view. He said, We‘re going reform health care, which means we‘re going to reform the insurance market, not eliminate it. There are governors like Governor Dean who wants to eliminate the insurance companies in America.

DEAN: Nonsense. That is simply not true.

LANDRIEU: The president did not run...

DEAN: It‘s just not true.

LANDRIEU: ... on that-that is true. Governor, that is. The president didn‘t run on that. He ran on reforming it and fixing it. So Joe has a little different view of wanting the private sector...

MATTHEWS: OK...

LANDRIEU: ... to have more, you know, at the table. I sort of agree with that, but I‘m a little bit more open to compromise on it than he is. But nonetheless, we need 60 votes.

MATTHEWS: OK...

LANDRIEU: We‘re still working with Olympia Snowe, hoping we can get her vote, as well.

MATTHEWS: Well, good luck. Senator Mary Landrieu, thank you.

LANDRIEU: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: You have a last thought, Governor?

DEAN: Yes. First of all, it‘s obviously not true that I want to eliminate the insurance market. Second of all, I‘d be interested to know why Senator Landrieu...

LANDRIEU: Well, you just spent a half an hour beating up on them, Howard. And we need to reform...

DEAN: Mary, I‘d like to know why you would...

LANDRIEU: ... them and...

DEAN: ... why you deny my people the choice to sign up for an alternative.

LANDRIEU: There is plenty...

DEAN: You are forcing us...

LANDRIEU: There‘s plenty of reform...

DEAN: ... into insurance companies.

LANDRIEU: ... in this bill for insurance...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: We‘re in overtime here.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Thirty seconds for the governor and then thirty seconds for the senator.

DEAN: You would not let us choose another program. You forced us into the insurance industry. We don‘t want to be forced into the insurance industry. You took away our choice.

MATTHEWS: OK, your response...

DEAN: That is wrong.

LANDRIEU: That is not true.

MATTHEWS: A final response by the Senate.

LANDRIEU: You never-you never had that choice to begin with. This bill...

DEAN: The president-the president campaigned on it, Mary.

LANDRIEU: ... would always-no, he did not...

DEAN: The president of the United States...

LANDRIEU: ... campaign for public option.

DEAN: ... campaigned for...

MATTHEWS: OK...

DEAN: Yes, he most certainly did.

LANDRIEU: He did not campaign for Medicare for all.

DEAN: He most certainly did.

(CROSSTALK)

DEAN: He absolutely did. You are not accurate...

LANDRIEU: He most certainly did not.

DEAN: ... on that.

MATTHEWS: Governor...

DEAN: He campaigned for a federal employee...

LANDRIEU: He told people, If you have...

DEAN: ... benefit with a public option.

LANDRIEU: ... if you-if you like...

DEAN: That‘s what he campaigned for.

LANDRIEU: ... the insurance that you have...

MATTHEWS: Governor...

LANDRIEU: ... you‘ll be able to keep it.

DEAN: And he also said there‘d be a public option, along with the federal employee benefit package. That is what...

LANDRIEU: And there is.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... just stop for a second, Governor.

LANDRIEU: There is one in the bill.

MATTHEWS: I‘ve got to let the senator respond.

DEAN: There is no public option.

MATTHEWS: The Senator gets to respond. Is that your last word, Senator? Because I want you to have the final word.

LANDRIEU: Yes. My last point-thank you, Chris. In the bill that the governor is now saying he‘s not for, there‘s a national non-profit option that gives the same choices that members of Congress and federal employees have. If that‘s not enough, I don‘t know what is.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much, Senator Mary Landrieu of Louisiana...

LANDRIEU: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: ... and Dr. Howard Dean. Gentleman, thank you, and lady.