CHRIS MATTHEWS:l Let‘s begin with the president‘s meeting today with Democratic senators at the White House for his final push on health care reform. We‘re joined by Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota and Senator Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire.

Let me start with Senator Klobuchar. Is it true that it‘s come down to a bill that will not have either a public option or this ability to buy into Medicare at the age of 55?

SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D), MINNESOTA: Well, Chris, we‘re still getting the numbers from the CBO. But remember, what‘s been added to the bill now is not just the exchange, which allow people to pool their numbers and go in and buy insurance that‘s cheaper because they‘ve got greater numbers, but it has something modeled on the federal employee health care plan, which is something the president and all of us have been asking for for years, with non-profit insurance companies and really trying to bring that competition down, getting more companies in there, getting more non-profits in, so we bring up competition and bring those rates down.

MATTHEWS: Well, the way I read that-well, let me go to Senator Shaheen because I read that that, yes, it looks like Joe Lieberman has gotten his way and we‘re not going to have either the public option or this buy-in to Medicare care at the age of 55. Senator Shaheen, is that the way it looks right now as we go towards what looks like the last call for this bill?

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, look, I support a public option. I think that would have been important to have in the bill. But I‘ve always said all along that there are a lot of ways to accomplish what we want to accomplish with a public option. And we need to get more competition into the insurance market. That‘s what the exchanges will do. We‘re requiring insurance companies to spend most of their funds now providing health care for people, rather than on administrative costs. I think that‘s important to do. We‘re saying that they‘ve got to cover people who have preexisting conditions. And we‘re saying that all insurance companies have to abide by those same rules when it comes to covering people.

So we may not have a public option in this plan, but what we‘re going to do is cover 31 million more -- 33 million more Americans, and I think that‘s real progress.

KLOBUCHAR: And Chris, the other aspect of this, of course, is the cost reforms that you see in the bill, the fact that the deficit will be brought down over $100 billion, that Medicare will stay strong for another nine years-it was going to go in the red by 2017 -- that we‘re going to fill the doughnut hole for our seniors, that people are going to be able to keep their kids on their insurance until they‘re 26. These are things that people have been working decades to accomplish.

And one of the things the president emphasized at this meeting was that not everyone is going to be pleased with every single provision. Some people are going to be disappointed that some things aren‘t in there. But look at what we‘ve gotten, 31 million more people covered, over $100 billion in deficit reduction, the cost reforms that Senator Shaheen was talking about, the insurance regulation, finally putting down some rules. This is a major change.

And it‘s reform for so many people in my state. They‘ve been calling, saying, you know, My daughter‘s basically been just kicked off her insurance, I got a letter, because her husband, the small business, they couldn‘t afford it anymore, and she‘s got cystic fibrosis, and she was crying so hard, she couldn‘t even talk on the phone. She writes this-the mom writes at the end of the letter, We need you to be our voice. That‘s what this bill is about. That‘s what the president emphasized.

MATTHEWS: So the point right now is to sell the bill and to sell the disadvantages of not passing the bill, the costs which will go up, the loss of insurance coverage which will occur. The president made all those points today, and you senators have made the positive case for the bill as it stands.

But let me bring you back to the politics. The front page of "The New York Times" today, which is sold heavily in Connecticut, said-look at the headline, "Lieberman gets ex-party to shift on health plan." It seems to me that "The New York Times," even in its objectivity, has had it with Joe Lieberman. Would you say that‘s the case, Senator Shaheen, that they‘re taking it to this guy and basically saying that he has muscled his way into influencing a major piece of Democratic legislation by just saying, If you don‘t have me, you don‘t have a bill and you don‘t have me, so you better dump the Medicare proposal and dump the public option or I‘m not aboard? Is the front page of "The New York Times" accurate today, Senator Shaheen?

SHAHEEN: Well, I think there are a lot of compromises in this bill made because a lot of people have had an influence on it. Joe Lieberman‘s issues have been more public than many people‘s. But regardless of where he‘s been, the bottom line is this is a bill that‘s going to make a difference for people. It‘s going to make a difference because we‘re going to cover 33 million more Americans.

MATTHEWS: Right.

SHAHEEN: It‘s going to make a difference because it‘s going to address the long-term costs of health care. As Amy says, $130 billion in savings to the deficit over the first 10 years. So it‘s a plan that we need to support. It‘s a start. And we‘re going to come back. This is not an issue that‘s going to end when we pass this bill.

KLOBUCHAR: Yes, you know, I think-I think Vice President Biden said it best at that meeting.

SHAHEEN: Yes.

KLOBUCHAR: In his gravelly voice, Chris, you would have loved this moment, he says, Come on, people! He said, I‘ve been there for 30 years, and these bills, major pieces of legislation, reforms get added, things get better as time goes on, but we have to get this done for the people of this country.

SHAHEEN: And we‘ve been trying to do this for over 60 years. This is our opportunity.

MATTHEWS: Well, Senators, let‘s listen to Joe Biden now. The vice president was on "MORNING JOE" on this network today. Let‘s listen. I think he made this point in this bit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What I learned from Mike Mansfield when I first got there-I told you the story-is never question another man‘s motive, question his judgment. I think Joe‘s judgment is wrong on this.

If health care does not pass in this Congress, then-and every day

gets closer to the election, as opposed to having more breathing room to

actually have discussions and real open fights here, it is-it makes it -

it‘s going to be kicked back for a generation.

And I think any Democrat who decides for their own shallow purposes, if that were the case, to scuttle this is not going to have-you know, the southern parts of our states, Joe, not going to have a friend in the Lord.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Wow. Well, that seems to be the word from the vice president. Senator Shaheen, it looks like the Democrats have reached some kind of agreement here to move ahead with what you‘ve got. Is that fair to say, go with what you‘ve got?

SHAHEEN: Well, I think it‘s fair to say that we think we‘ve got a good piece of legislation, that it‘s going to reform health care in a way that makes a difference. Now, we‘re still negotiating around some of the points in the bill, so we don‘t have a date to vote yet. But we‘re all working very hard, and hopefully, we‘re going to get this done.

MATTHEWS: Do you consider, both of you, Joe Lieberman, to be a fellow Democrat? First Senator Klobuchar. Is Joe Lieberman a fellow Democrat, as you see it, or is he an outrider who has proven very difficult here? Which of those two assessments would you offer?

KLOBUCHAR: You know, you can be both. And let me tell you this, Chris. When you look at his voting record-I know that there are major disagreements with him on some of his positions on the Iraq war from the past, as well as this health care reform debate. But when you look at the times that we needed 60 votes throughout this process, with the stimulus bill and with other things that we did for the people of this country, you name it, he has been there on environmental issues, he‘s been there on women‘s issues and he has voted with Democrats.

So no matter how mad people might be at him right now, when you look at his record and you say, Does he vote more like a Democrat or does he vote more like a Republican, he votes more like a Democrat.

MATTHEWS: No, I said does he vote more like a Democrat or like an outlier who‘s been very difficult in this bill.

KLOBUCHAR: I said you could characterize him in both ways...

MATTHEWS: OK.

KLOBUCHAR: ... for the purpose of this discussion.

MATTHEWS: You said other people were mad at him. Are you mad at him?

KLOBUCHAR: I think everyone gets irritated when you want to get to a goal line, when you want to get this thing done, and someone‘s kind of running zigzag down the field. But in the end, Joe Lieberman today stood up and said that he-while he wants to see the details, he‘s inclined to be supportive of this bill. And that‘s what...

SHAHEEN: And that‘s the bottom line.

KLOBUCHAR: We need 60 votes.

MATTHEWS: Is it healthy to have someone, Senator Shaheen, who represents the insurance industry of Hartford, Connecticut, sculpting this bill at the end, putting the final touches on it, if you will? Is that healthy for your party, to have a colleague, if you will, from Hartford, Connecticut, on behalf of the insurance industry, defining the final touches of the health care bill which will make your point in history for the Democratic Party right now?

SHAHEEN: Look, we all have...

MATTHEWS: Is it healthy?

SHAHEEN: ... our own regional differences. There are a number of other people who would express some of the same concerns that Joe had. I think what‘s healthy is-no pun intended-is to make sure we get a health care reform bill that‘s going to do the kinds of changes that Amy and I have talked about.

MATTHEWS: OK.

SHAHEEN: And I-I‘m-hope that Joe‘s going to be with us in the final count.

KLOBUCHAR: You know, Chris, I‘d love to get the reimportation of drugs passed today. I‘m going to vote for that. I have been a big believer in that, and we may not pass that. And then I will go on to fight another day with Byron Dorgan and other people to get that done. We‘re not afraid of Canadian drugs in Minnesota. People come from Canada all the time. That‘s our vote tonight.

SHAHEEN: Or New Hampshire.

KLOBUCHAR: Or New Hampshire.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You can reach Canada in a car ride from either state, which justifies the trip, doesn‘t it. Anyway, Senator Amy Klobuchar and Senator Jeanne Shaheen, merry Christmas to both of you. I hope you get the bill done by Christmas.