CHRIS MATTHEWS: Let's begin with health care reform with U.S. Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee. He's a Republican. Senator, thank you for joining us as we begin the holiday season. Why don't the Republican Party, when you've been in charge-why don't you ever do health reform?

SEN. BOB CORKER (R-TENNESSEE): Well, you know, I've been there three years, Chris, and in my very first year, I offered a health care bill with Richard Burr and others that really did create the opportunity for millions of Americans to come on the roll (ph), to have the same kind of plans that we have in the United States Senate. I have a bill right now that I plan to offer as an amendment, if the-if the situation occurs that I can. And I'd like to see health care reform. I ran on health care reform and I'd love to see appropriate health care reform occur.

MATTHEWS: Well, here's the problem. Thirty-nine Republicans, including you, voted unanimously Friday night not even to bring up the health care reform bill. And your party has been in power many years with Reagan and later with George W. Bush, where you've controlled both houses of Congress, and never did you do health reform. And now you go out there and complain and vote unanimously against the Democrats even bringing the bill up for debate.

How can you defend your party-your party-on health reform when they never have done anything?

CORKER: Well, I'm just-I can only speak for myself, Chris. And I know there's a number...

MATTHEWS: Well, you can't. You voted with your party. Are you a Republican, sir?

CORKER: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Well, your party...

CORKER: I am. Let's talk...

MATTHEWS: ... explain its position over the years. Over the years, your party keeps waiting for the Democrats. It's like in "Peanuts." You wait for Charlie Brown to go kick the football, then you take the football out of the way. I mean, when are you going to kick the football? Just asking, and I won't ask it again. When is the Republican Party going to step up to the plate, to use another sports reference, and hit a home run on health care reform, do it yourself?

CORKER: Well, I hope that once we stop this bill on the floor-that, by the way, had Republicans offered this very bill, Chris-I think you and I obviously hail from different sides of the aisle, generally speaking-I assure you that if we had offered a bill that is exactly like this bill that's on the floor, you would be wearing us out-I mean, a bill that takes $464 billion out of Medicare to leverage a new entitlement, creates unfunded mandates to states, which are in deep trouble right now...

MATTHEWS: Right.

CORKER: ... uses six years' worth of costs and 10 years' worth of revenues, is actually going to drive up costs for private health insurance, you would be wearing us out. So we want to stop that bill.

MATTHEWS: Right.

CORKER: We want to instead move towards true health care reform. And I can't believe that you think putting 15 of the 31 million Americans that this bill proposes to do on Medicaid is health care reform. So our proposal is to stop this, and let's move towards something that's pragmatic, that actually gives Americans the same kind of choices that I have as a United States senator and that you have working with the particular station that-or network that you work for. That's the kind of health care reform that I think we'd like to see.

I have a bill that's drafted that I plan to offer as an amendment. As I mentioned, in my very first year in being in the Senate, I had a bill on the floor that created the opportunity for millions of Americans to have the choice of private, affordable quality health care. And that's where we'd like to see this go.

MATTHEWS: Well, you know, the problem is, Senator, that all these years of watching politics, I've been waiting for the-I think Richard Nixon tried to do something back in '71, and nobody on either side really got behind it. Nobody (INAUDIBLE) He tried. The Republicans in Congress didn't do anything. We've had all this experience with Republican rule over the years, where nothing got even started on health care. There certainly wasn't a bill that was brought to the floor.

You said to me, What would I say if the Republicans had brought a health care reform bill to passage, where you had to get...

CORKER: Like this...

MATTHEWS: ... cloture-if you had brought a bill up, a major bill to try to get people health care reform, I probably would have supported it. I mean, I would-I thought Richard Nixon had a great idea back in '71, where he mandated businesses to give health care to their employees. I thought Nixon was right. I thought the Democrats were wrong not embracing that, but probably you would have opposed that, wouldn't you?

CORKER: Boy, you don't-Chris-Chris, we know...

MATTHEWS: I mean, now that we're getting...

CORKER: ... with the bill Saturday night...

MATTHEWS: ... personal here, would you have supported Richard Nixon back in the '70s, when he came out for health care paid for by the employer in the private sector? Would you have been for that, a mandated benefit?

CORKER: Well, I've said what I'm for. And I've said that I'm for capping the exclusion at 17 grand. It creates $450 billion. And I'm for using that to help lower and middle-income citizens access the private market. I've said that from day one. I've offered a bill that does that. That's the kind of reform that I'd like to see.

I don't think putting 15 of 31 million Americans that this bill does in Medicaid, which is the worst health care program our country has-I don't think that is true health care reform. And that's shifting costs over to the private sector, ultimately driving up private sector costs.

In our state, Chris, there's been a study that says that health care costs in our state are going to go up 60 percent if a bill like this passes. So yes, we did want to stop this particular bill, a bill that was crafted behind closed doors. Sixty votes were garnered for this behind closed doors. We know where this particular piece of legislation is going, and yes, we'd rather stop this type of discussion now and move towards something that is pragmatic.

And again, Chris, $464 billion coming out of Medicare, not even dealing with the doc fix or SGR, which is $247 billion, instead using that money from an insolvent program that would take $38 trillion in cash in an account today earning the interest of Treasuries to be solvent. I just don't think that passes the common sense test. So yes, we'd rather stop...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CORKER: ... and propose something that we think does pass the common sense test. And I don't think you think this bill, in your heart, when you move away from the TV-I don't think you think this is true health care reform yourself.

MATTHEWS: Well, here's what I do think. You say behind closed doors. And I watched the process on the Senate Finance Committee. No Republican supported this, full opportunity to offer amendments and pass it, you didn't. The Labor Committee, same deal. You didn't like the bill in either case, either form. So they put together the merged bill. You say that's behind closed doors. It's a result of the committee process.

Let's take a look at some Republican critiques. And I just think the Republican Party has been asleep at the switch here on health reform, forcing the Democrats to do this in a partisan fashion with all of the Democrats, rather than having some Republicans aboard. Let's take a look here at the Republicans and some of your colleagues and what they had to say during the debate on cloture Saturday night. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH ®, UTAH: If this bill passes, it's going to be an explosion of health care costs like we never dreamed possible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was supposed to lower the cost of health care. It won't do anything of the kind.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN ®, ARIZONA: I don't think Americans really understand the scam that's going on here. I think Bernie Madoff went to jail for this kind of behavior!

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: The American people are asking us to stop this bill, and we're going to do anything and everything we can to prevent this measure from becoming law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: How do you explain, Senator, that most people, when they're polled on this, say they not only like a Democratic plan, they want a health public option, which is further off to the left? Why do most people say yes when asked by pollsters, Do you want this public option to the private insurance plans available now?

CORKER: Well, I think people have had a lot of trouble with insurance companies, and I think there are reforms that need to take place.

I want to go back to what you just were showing on the air, what Republicans said on the floor. Is there anything that any of them said that wasn't true? I mean, I would ask you that. Using 6 years' worth of cost, and 10 years' worth...

MATTHEWS: Right.

CORKER: ... of revenues, is that true? I mean...

MATTHEWS: There's absolutely no denying that...

CORKER: ... do you really think that this is...

MATTHEWS: I've always believed that if you're going to take 30 or 40 million people that are sitting in the emergency rooms right now, trying to get some health care and waiting three or four hours at a time to get something fixed, they should have had the chance to go to a doctor for-that that's going to cost a lot of money. I think anybody who denies that is crazy. The fact is, it's going to cost more money to give people health care that don't have it.

The choice we face is, keep the emergency room stocked with poor people that can't afford health care and middle class people that don't have insurance, or do something about it. I would like to see the two parties work together, but they're not.

CORKER: Well-well, wait a minute!

MATTHEWS: And so the Democrats are going at it alone. Your party is not doing anything on health care.

CORKER: Now, look, I met with Max Baucus multiple times on the front end and told him that I was more than willing to talk about health care reform. I couldn't see how funding a new entitlement by taking money out of a program that's already insolvent, Medicare, an entitlement-taking money from that, made any sense. I talked to him about the unfunded mandates to the states, which we're doing. And by the way, you talk about the emergency rooms. I mean, this bill will add to people being in the emergency rooms because...

MATTHEWS: How?

CORKER: ... that's the number one place that people-well, that's the number one place, Chris, that people on Medicaid go, is to the emergency room. And so this bill is going to -- 50 percent of the increase in Americans having coverage is putting them in Medicaid.

MATTHEWS: OK.

CORKER: I don't view that as health care reform. Ron Wyden had a bill that did away with Medicaid and gave people the chance to actually have private health insurance, and that concept I embraced. So I don't view this as health care reform at all...

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CORKER: ... and I think most Americans are realizing that that's the case. I know you want to move on to another part of the sector, but I don't think anything that you aired that Republicans said on the floor a minute ago is anything but true. And I think, again, had I offered this bill, this bill in the form that it's in, you'd be railing against me because...

MATTHEWS: Well, I-OK, you asked...

CORKER: ... it just does not add up.

MATTHEWS: ... my opinion, and I'll give it to you. I think this country is governed best when you have certain liberal values but perhaps more conservative fiscal policy combined with it. I think this country is the odd person out in the world with regard to health care. Every other modern country has it. We don't. There's a reason why the American people keep saying they want health care developed at the federal level, because they wonder why we don't do it already. The Republican Party is probably on the wrong side of history.

But on the economics, you've got a lot of good points to make. I just wish the two parties would get together and we'd get the best of both of you guys, the fiscal thinking of the Republicans, the big heart of the Democratic Party. Thank you very much for having good fiscal sense, Senator Bob Corker.

CORKER: I agree. I agree, and I hope we'll do that. Thank you.

MATTHEWS: OK. Coming up-well, we've still got some time. Coming up: Big trouble ahead-thanks for joining us on this week. Big trouble ahead for the Democrats. They're losing independent voters by the droves, and that's particularly hurting the president, although a lot of Republicans are becoming independents. Let's talk about what's going on here. The largest group in this country is neither Democrat nor Republican. Right now, it's independent, and that's a big development. We'll be right back.