RACHEL MADDOW: Joining us now is former Vermont and DNC chair Dr. Howard Dean. Gov. Dean, thanks very much for coming on the show.

FMR. GOV. HOWARD DEAN (D-VT), FORMER CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Thank you for having me on.

MADDOW: OK. Sen. Arlen Specter on "The Ed Show" on MSNBC today said he thinks Democrats have 60 votes to invoke cloture without Sen. Snowe. If that‘s true, is real reform a done deal?

DEAN: Well, look, nothing is ever a done deal until the final vote, but I think that‘s true. You know, there‘s a long history in legislative bodies, in the Senate and the House in Washington or one of them that you can vote any way you want, of course, on a substantive issue.

But you‘ve got to vote with the leader of your party on a procedural issue. That is, if you are in a caucus and you owe your position of your chairmanship or your ranking member or whatever it is, to the leader and to the party, then you owe the party, not a vote on an issue. That‘s your own business and your constituents‘ business, but you owe the party and the leadership the ability to run the chamber.

And that is why I think that there will be 60 votes. And I think Sen. Reid will do the best he can to get it. And I think he‘ll get them.

MADDOW: Why do you think there‘s been so much talk about the inevitability of a Republican filibuster on health reform and so little discussion about the fact that a Democrat would have to make it happen?

Republicans really can‘t do this alone. But although we‘ve tried to stress that on this show, it doesn‘t seem to be the main narrative about the way people are talking about how this gets done.

DEAN: You know, it‘s interesting, Rachel. This thing is not going the way the Republicans would like it to. The Republican obstructionism has really gotten to be a problem.

An increasing number, since August, of people supporting the public option - there was a poll in "The Washington Post"-ABC that came out which was just stunning, which showed that 51 percent of all Americans would prefer a solution without any Republicans as long as it had a public option.

Now, that is an unbelievable change in position since August. And I think, you know, the Senate ultimately is going to respond to what their constituents want.

MADDOW: You and I have talked in the past about the strategy for the final vote and who‘s going to be put on the spot. If it‘s a very progressive bill, then conservative Democrats will be facing the choice of whether or not to vote no on health reform in order to seem conservative.

If it‘s a conservative bill, then liberal Democrats will have to decide whether or not they‘re going to vote no on health reform in order to seem liberal. Which do you think is a better strategic bet for Harry Reid?

DEAN: You know, I think we should stop talking about liberal and conservative. What this is about is whether the American people get to make choices and whether politicians and bureaucrats and insurance companies are going to make the choices.

The reform here is not in what the House and Senate do. It‘s in what they let us do. If we get an option, then the American people will decide whether they want reform health care or not by whether they choose the public option or not.

If we don‘t have any choice, then I think it‘s going to be a big problem, because what we really want is choice. This is not a debate about whether the public option is better than insurance companies. It‘s whether we get to make that choice for our families and our kids or whether other people get to make that choice.

MADDOW: Former Vermont governor and DNC chair Howard Dean, very ably dodging my strategic question there, but giving us a great answer nonetheless. Hats off to you, sir. Thanks for joining us.

DEAN: Thanks, Rachel.