MATTHEWS: Let‘s start with the Senate Finance Committee vote today on health care reform. We have two committee members with us now, beginning with Senator Kent Conrad, Democrat of North Dakota, who‘s chairman of the Budget Committee. Let me start with Senator Conrad. This is fascinating now because now, after your committee has passed a bill 14 to 9, there‘s going to be a little group meeting, Chris Dodd of Connecticut speaking for the labor committee, health committee, and speaking for your committee will be Max Baucus, the chairman of the committee, and then a little group of people from the White House.

Does this mean that now President Obama‘s going to have to put his stamp on this bill, no more hiding back, playing cheerleader, he‘s got to get in there and play the teamwork?

SEN. KENT CONRAD (D-ND) FINANCE COMMITTEE: Certainly, the president will become more involved as this bill advances. It‘s jumped the committee hurdle, but as you know, Chris, it‘s got a long way to go.

MATTHEWS: Well, that‘s what I‘m saying. "The Washington Post"

reported today that the meeting is going to include Baucus, Dodd, and a

handful of top White House officials. Is this crossing the line between

the executive branch and the legislative branch? I mean, all of a sudden -

· you‘re not going to be in that room, even though you‘re chairman of the budget committee, but probably Rahm Emanuel is going to be in there, Jim Messina‘s going to be, former staffers of you guys are going to be in that room with Harry Reid, the boss, the Senate minority (SIC) leader. What kind of deal is that?

CONRAD: Well, after all, they‘re representing the president of the United States. So this has happened many times. I‘ve seen it repeatedly. And as legislation advances, the White House is represented in the discussions. Nothing unusual about that.

MATTHEWS: Does this mean the president has to say what he stands for, finally?

CONRAD: I think we know what the president stands for. He‘s made very clear that he wants to expand coverage. He wants to improve quality. He wants to contain costs. He wants to do it in a way that‘s paid for, that bends the cost curve in the right way. So I think he‘s been quite clear. But obviously, there are hundreds of details, and he‘ll have to get more involved in the details as it proceeds.

MATTHEWS: Well, one big detail, of course, and it‘s a large detail, is the public option question. Your committee bill doesn‘t contain that. I‘ve agreed with you on this. I don‘t think it would clear the Senate. I think it‘s smart to do what you can do to get 60 votes. But the president now, won‘t he have to show his hand to the House side by helping you guys write a final bill?

CONRAD: Well, the president is certainly in a position to help craft a final compromise, but you know, really, a long way to go before you have discussions between the House and the Senate. The first thing you have to do is merge these bills in the Senate, get the Senate to take action. Then comes the point at which you‘re firing with live ammunition. That‘s when you write a conference report that actually becomes law.

MATTHEWS: Who‘s going to vote first, the U.S. Senate or the U.S.

House of Representatives, on health care?

CONRAD: You know, I don‘t know. I thought for a long time that the House would move first. I‘m not so certain now. They, as you know, have a Rules Committee. It‘s much easier for them to advance legislation than it is in the Senate. In the Senate, you‘ve got to have 60 votes if you‘re moving under regular order, so a bit more of a challenge in the Senate. So I wouldn‘t be surprised if the House still goes first.

MATTHEWS: See, the reason I asked that question, it‘s really important, because if you‘re one of the 40 or 50 moderate to conservative Democrats over there, you don‘t want to be out there voting for a more liberal or more left-leaning bill if you know it‘s not going to pass conference by the Senate. There‘s no sense sticking your neck out, exposing yourself for a liberal bill if what‘s going to come out of both houses is a moderate bill.

And I say that in all concern about people that are going the lose their seats forever if they vote for something too left-wing in the House, only to see it knocked down in the Senate-House conference. Don‘t you see the reason why they may want to have you guys vote first, so they know what reality they‘re facing politically?

CONRAD: I do, absolutely. And look, I‘ve thought for a long time the only bill that really has a chance to get through the entire process is the bill that would come out of the Finance Committee, that would be paid for, that would bend the cost curve in the right way. Yes, it expands coverage. It improves quality. Those are all critically important components. But a bill that‘s not paid for, a bill that doesn‘t bend the cost curve in the right way really has no chance of commanding 60 votes in the Senate.

MATTHEWS: What was the importance of Senator Snowe joining your majority today?

CONRAD: I think it gives confirmation of the effort here to reach out in a bipartisan way. Chairman Baucus-I‘ve never seen a chairman in 23 years make a more sincere, dedicated effort to bring both sides together, hundreds and hundreds of hours of meetings, Republicans and Democrats. In our group of six, three Democrats, three Republicans. We met 61 times. So there has been an all-out effort here to involve and engage members on both sides, and I think Senator Snowe‘s vote indicates that at least with respect to some of our colleagues, it‘s a success.

MATTHEWS: Congratulations, Senator. I know, having worked on the Hill as a staffer, that the best work on the Hill, on the Senate side, is done quietly and without fanfare and without credit oftentimes. And you put a lot of work into this bill. Thank you very much for coming here, and congratulations on putting together that 14 to 9 vote today.

CONRAD: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: That‘s Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota.

Let‘s listen now to what Republican senator Olympia Snowe of Maine said today as she joined that majority.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. OLYMPIA SNOWE (R-ME), FINANCE COMMITTEE: Is this bill all that I would want from it? Is it all that it can be? No. But when history calls, history calls. And I happen to think that the consequences of inaction dictate the urgency of Congress. That is what my vote to report this bill out of committee here today represents, is to continue working your process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, what you just heard was Senator Olympia Snowe. She could be the key to possibly-tomorrow, we‘re going to have Susan Collins, her fellow member of the Senate from Maine, who‘s also a Republican moderate, as well. She might also vote for this bill. We‘re going to find that out, perhaps as early as tomorrow night on HARDBALL. Senator Collins is going to be a guest here.

But I think the key thing, politically, for those of you who have followed this health care bill all the way through and will follow it in the weeks ahead, is watch those moderate Democrats because they may feel now that because they have a Republican member joining them, that it‘ll be easier for Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Blanche-well, Blanche Lincoln‘s already aboard-people like Mary Landrieu of Louisiana and Mark Pryor of Arkansas to join now that you have a Republican aboard.

Anyway, let‘s bring in a Republican member on the Finance Committee who voted nay today, Utah senator Orrin Hatch. Sir, you‘re watching this bill proceed despite your objections. What are your feelings tonight watching this?

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R-UT), FINANCE COMMITTEE: Well, I expected them to pass it out of committee. That‘s step number one. And I commend Max Baucus and Senator Conrad for the work that they‘ve done. I don‘t agree with it. I think it‘s going to cost an arm and a leg. If you put this over a full 10 years, it‘s $1.8 trillion, and that doesn‘t even count the doctor fix. See, they only took care of the doctor fix for one year so they can make this claim that they are balancing the budget. The rest of those nine years, they‘re not taking care of the doctor fix. And of course, they don‘t even-the program doesn‘t even start until 2014. That‘s the only way they could get it down under the $1.8 trillion.

MATTHEWS: The Republican Party was in office and controlled for a while there both houses, as well as the White House, and you have enjoyed periods during your tenure as a senator when the Republicans had the upper hand. Why didn‘t you take the opportunity when you did to extend health coverage to a larger number of Americans?

HATCH: Well, keep in mind, I think a lot of us wanted to do that. But I‘ve been in the Senate 33 years, we‘ve never had a fiscal conservative majority in the Senate in my whole time, other than through great presidential leadership, Reagan, Bush I, Bush II. Even Clinton from time to time would do some fiscally conservative things. But we never really had the votes to really do what would really be a health reform bill that I think would work.

MATTHEWS: Well, it seems like with all their flaws, the Democrats, at least, have tried. Now, Richard Nixon tried it back when he was president. He went for an employer mandate. That went nowhere because Ted Kennedy didn‘t want to help him with it. You‘ve had Democrats who have failed in the past because Carter and Kennedy couldn‘t get along. Jim Cooper, Dingell, Moynihan and the rest, they all couldn‘t get their act together.

But isn‘t it fair to say that the Republicans have not been aggressive enough in trying to find free-market, fiscally conservative ways to bring health care to a large number of Americans, that your party has not done that? You‘ve sort of said it just now.

HATCH: Well, there are six Republican bills. But to be honest with you, with only 40 votes in the Senate, we don‘t have a chance of having any of those succeed at this particular point unless the Democrat bill fails. If it fails, then I think we can do something. Personally...

MATTHEWS: Senator, we‘ve got to go. We just see the president beginning to speak. Thank you so much, Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah, for joining us.