Joining us now Democratic Senator Barbara Boxer of the great state of California. She‘s the author of the new novel, "Blind Trust," her second novel.

Senator Boxer, thanks very much for being here.

SEN. BARBARA BOXER (D), CALIFORNIA: Thanks for having me on.

MADDOW: We have been trying to look at the two sides in the health care debate and trying to figure out who seems interested, not in spreading information about health care or arguments about health care, but conspiracy theories. And we keep coming back to these industry-funded groups.

Is that the same thing? Does that mean that we‘re facing the same thing now that we faced in ‘93?

BOXER: Well, clearly, they‘re better at it. But I think, thanks to you and I say this sincerely, and Keith Olbermann, and a lot of other people in the free-thank goodness-free media, we are learning the truth. And, you know, I think what the Republicans thought was that they would come on here with these groups and shout everybody down and that we would walk away, we Democrats would walk away.

And I‘ll tell you, I think we are being tested, and I think we will stand up to this, because at the end of the day, if you look at the status quo, Rachel, 14,000 people a day losing their health insurance for no other reason than the insurance company walks away, or they lose their job and they can‘t take their health care with them.

If you look at where we are in infant mortality, 29 out of 30 industrialized nations; 24 on longevity, life expectancy out of 30. If you look at the way people are going bankrupt here, about 70 percent of bankruptcies are linked to a health care crisis. It goes on.

And the last point I would make is, if you look at what will happen if we do nothing, the average family in America will be paying between 40 percent and 50 percent of their income on health care insurance premiums. This is unsustainable.

If I can‘t stand up to some screamers and to Rush Limbaugh, then I don‘t deserve to be in the United States Senate.

MADDOW: Well, is there a Democratic versus Republican fight going on that is about health care policy? If we-everybody acknowledges the numbers-at least most people acknowledge the number of uninsured, the out of control costs, the difficulties, not only for American families, but for our economy and for our international competitiveness in terms of our business. Are Republicans proposing a different way to meet those challenges? Or are they saying, don‘t fix it, it‘s fine?

BOXER: They‘re the party of nope. And I like to think of myself as belonging to the party of hope. It‘s no-it‘s no about everything. And you know, I don‘t think they do buy into the fact that this is a problem for most Americans. They say we have the greatest health care in the world.

Well, the fact is, we pay twice as much and our outcomes aren‘t as good. We have 48 million people with no health care. As a result, they walk into emergency rooms. It‘s costing every American who‘s insured $1,100 to pick up the cost of uncompensated care that goes on at the emergency room.

So, I don‘t think the Republicans own up to that at all, and I don‘t think they‘re interested in really doing anything. And if you look behind it, as you are, I think what this is about is a continuation of the presidential campaign. That‘s what it reminds me of.

And I-I told some other reporter the other day that, you know, I‘d been confronted by screaming mobs myself, and the last one was when I went down to Florida when there was a recount going on over Bush v. Gore. And I got down there to just talk to the press. And people were screaming at me, "Get back to California, leave, go home, get out of here," et cetera.

The only way they were quiet is when I said, you know, two of your idols, Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan came from my great state of California, and they would not be happy to see you screaming at a senator who gets elected, you know, after an election the whole state partakes in. And they quieted down.

But it is this election-type feeling. Now, yes, there are some people that are utterly confused, that think it is about death panels and it is the sickest thing. As you point out, a Republican, Johnny Isakson, simply thought it was good policy to say if a senior citizen wants to speak with a doctor about whether they want, you know, heroic health efforts made on their behalf, you know, when days are waning and they‘re sick, they should have a right to have that conversation. If they don‘t want to do it, they don‘t have to do it.

Now, suddenly, this has become the cause celebre-it‘s nothing.

It‘s nothing.

MADDOW: It‘s not about policy. It‘s nothing to do with what‘s in the bill.

BOXER: It‘s a choice-there‘s a small sentence in there that says: if you want to talk to your doctor about what you want to have happened to you, if you get very sick, you can. And we‘ll help you pay for it. But guess what? If you don‘t want to, you don‘t have to talk to anybody. This is a free country, you know?

MADDOW: It‘s-the thing that‘s hard for me is I feel like the more-the further the discussion gets away from the actual policy, the more it‘s obviously just about politics. And it does put, I think, Democrats in a pickle in terms of whether or not to engage about this stupid conspiratorial stuff or whether to try to keep things tightly about the policy. I guess that‘s a strategic decision every Democrat has to decide.

BOXER: I have a job to do.

MADDOW: Yes.

BOXER: I‘ve got to fight for the people I represent. And I got to fight for them. And if I don‘t, if I walk away because I‘m too scared to stand up and say what I think and listen and answer and tell people, "Let‘s have a civil conversation"-if I don‘t have the courage to do that, I don‘t belong in the Senate, simple as that.

MADDOW: Senator Barbara Boxer of California, author of the new book, "Blind Trust," your second novel, which I‘m very much looking forward to-thank you for bringing a copy of it. It‘s nice to see you. Thanks for coming in.

BOXER: Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: Nice to see you. Thank you.