MATTHEWS: Well, we have got the first HARDBALL primary of the season coming out now.

U.S. congressman Joe Sestak announced this morning that he will run against Senator Arlen Specter in Pennsylvania's Democratic primary next year. Specter, of course, is now a Democrat. The winner of that fight will face Republican Pat Toomey, it looks like, in the general election next November.

All three candidates are with us tonight.

We begin with Pat Toomey, the Republican.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: Mr. Toomey, thank you.

When you announced that you were going to challenge Arlen Specter for renomination, he switched-you beat him in the polls, and then he switched parties. What are voters to make of that?

PAT TOOMEY ®, PENNSYLVANIA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think what it demonstrates is that the only principle that's important to Arlen Specter is his own reelection.

He had crisscrossed Pennsylvania, adamantly insisting that he would never leave the Republican Party. And, then, about a week later, when he saw that he couldn't win this primary, he immediately abandoned the primary -- so-the-the party. So, I-I think it's pretty clear that the only thing important to Arlen Specter is his own political survival.

MATTHEWS: Do you think he's a liberal Democrat, as he's been voting lately? Is that who he is, as you have known him for years?

(CROSSTALK)

TOOMEY: You know, he is...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Is he a liberal Democrat, as you know it right now?

TOOMEY: Chris, Arlen Specter is whatever he thinks the political calculus suggests he should be at any moment in time.

Right now, that means liberal Democrat, because he's got a primary challenge from the left. If-if he manages to get by that, which I don't know that he will, but, if he does, he will be something else again. This is a guy who has made a career out of being on both sides of as many issues as he can.

MATTHEWS: Who is tougher for you to beat next November, Sestak, who has just entered-entered the race today, Joe Sestak, the congressman, or the senator?

TOOMEY: Yes, honestly, I don't know. They both have strengths. They both have weaknesses. I really don't know which one is easier to beat in the general election.

But I can tell you that either one of them presents a stark contrast. You know, they both supported all the bailouts. They have both supported massive unprecedented spending, huge government intrusion in health care, big tax increases. So, there will be a stark contrast between either one of those guys and myself, a supporter of limited government and less government spending, ending the bailouts, lower taxes, free enterprise.

I think it will be a stark contrast either way.

MATTHEWS: Are you on the political right?

(LAUGHTER)

TOOMEY: I'm on the center-right.

MATTHEWS: Center-right. Well, let's ask you about a couple issues.

What do you think about outlawing abortion? Arlen Specter is pro-choice. Where are you on that one?

TOOMEY: I'm pro-life.

MATTHEWS: Do-would you like to outlaw abortion?

TOOMEY: Yes, I'm-I'm pro-life. I think that...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Would you outlaw abortion? Would you put people in jail for...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOMEY: Let me...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: No. Would you put people in...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOMEY: Would you let me...

(CROSSTALK)

TOOMEY: I will answer your question, Chris.

MATTHEWS: No. But I want to form the definition.

TOOMEY: I think Roe vs. Wade was wrongly defined...

MATTHEWS: OK. Right.

TOOMEY: ... wrongly decided. And I think states should be free to restrict abortion.

And I would support legislation in Pennsylvania that would ban abortion. And I would-I would suggest that we have penalties for doctors who perform them if we were able to pass that law.

MATTHEWS: Would you put people in jail for performing abortions?

TOOMEY: At some point, doctors performing abortions, I think, would -

would be subject to that sort of penalty.

MATTHEWS: OK.

Let me ask you about this birthers movement out there on the far right. Are you that far out?

TOOMEY: Well, what is it? What is it?

MATTHEWS: Do you question or do you have any doubts about this president, Barack Obama, being a native-born American, and therefore quite eligible to be serving as our president? Do you have any doubts on that subject?

TOOMEY: My-I-I don't have any doubts. I think he made it very clear a long time ago that he was born in Hawaii.

MATTHEWS: Well, what do you make of all this noise out there? Apparently, according to a new poll out there, 30 percent of your party now has doubts about it. And 20-some think he was born overseas. What do you make of that opinion in your party?

TOOMEY: I-I don't know what to make of it, Chris. People-people get a lot of different ideas. I can't explain ideas that I don't happen to hold.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, let me ask you about the whole question of the culture issue. It teams so me, if you're going to win this election, you're going to win it on taxes, on government spending, on debt, the good, solid, middle-of-the-road issues.

How do you avoid this campaign becoming an issue about cultural questions? The Schiavo case, I believe, had a lot to do with killing the reelection chances of former Senator Santorum of Pennsylvania. Whether you agree or not, I think that's a tricky question in Pennsylvania, whether the government should get so involved in a case like that.

How do you avoid the cultural issues in this campaign that Specter could use against you or Sestak could use against you?

TOOMEY: A lot of the cultural issues cut both ways, Chris. I mean, I'm a big supporter of the Second Amendment. I don't think Joe Sestak is. I think Arlen Specter likes to have it both ways on the Second Amendment. That's an important cultural issue in Pennsylvania, where I am definitely on the right side of this issue.

I think, right now, the issue that's most important to people is the economy. It's jobs. That's always been my focus. I'm a guy that came from the private sector, a guy that actually worked in-in the real world, before going to Congress, where I sat on the Budget Committee and focused on economics and budgetary issues.

I think that is by far and away the most important issue on the minds of voters. It's exactly what I'm prepared to address. And I think it's going...

MATTHEWS: OK.

TOOMEY: ... to work very well to my advantage.

MATTHEWS: How do you think Arlen Specter votes in the voting booth? Does he-did he vote the last 30 years as a Republican in the privacy of the voting booth, or did he vote secretly for the Democrats or what? What's your sense, knowing the guy all these years?

TOOMEY: Chris-Chris...

MATTHEWS: What is he really?

TOOMEY: ... I don't know that he has a real core. I think he is whatever he needs to be at any given moment, based on his calculation.

I mean, look at the card check bill. He's a co-sponsor of the bill. He goes to a press conference endorsing the bill. He's all for it. Then he sees that he might have a primary against me. He decides he's against it. Then he decides he can't win the primary against me, joins the Democratic Party, and now he's looking for a way to be for it again.

So, I couldn't begin to predict how he votes in the privacy of a voting booth.

MATTHEWS: Well, look what...

TOOMEY: But I think everybody ought to have their privacy.

MATTHEWS: We will be-well, not guys who run for office don't.

Thank you very much, Pat Toomey.

TOOMEY: All right.

MATTHEWS: You voted for McCain last time, right?

TOOMEY: I voted for John McCain.

MATTHEWS: And you voted for Sarah Palin, right?

TOOMEY: She was on the ticket. I voted for both of them. That's right.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. Do you have to hesitation there? Do you think she would have been a better vice president than Joe Biden?

TOOMEY: Yes. Probably yes.

MATTHEWS: Probably yes?

TOOMEY: Yes, she would have been a better...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You sound a little unsure of your party loyalty. Do you think Sarah Palin was a good candidate for V.P. or not?

TOOMEY: You throw them at me quickly here, Chris. I want to-I want to make sure I tell you what I really think. And what I really think is that Sarah Palin...

MATTHEWS: Well, you voted. You could handle the-you could handle the question last-you could handle the question last November.

(CROSSTALK)

TOOMEY: ... that Sarah Palin would be a better vice president.

MATTHEWS: How about answering it now?

TOOMEY: I just did. How many times do...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I just...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: ... for Palin.

TOOMEY: How many times? I said yes.

MATTHEWS: OK. It took you a while.

Thank you very much, Congressman Pat Toomey, running for the United States Senate for Pennsylvania.

Thank you for joining us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Still ahead: the two Democratic candidates for the Senate in this hot fight in Pennsylvania. Senator Arlen Specter is coming up, and the man who announced today he will challenge him, Joe Sestak, the congressman from Delaware County. It should be interesting. It's getting more interesting.

This is HARDBALL, only on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Coming up: Joe Sestak vs. Arlen Specter. And the winner gets Pat Toomey to run against. Specter and Sestak, the Democrats, are coming up here next.

Our Keystone State clash, our HARDBALL primary, the first of the season, continues when HARDBALL comes back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. U.S. Congressman Joe Sestak announced this morning that he's going to run against Arlen Specter, the incumbent Democratic senator in Pennsylvania, next year. We're going to talk to Congressman Sestak in a few minutes. But now let's go to Senator Specter, who is joining us right now.

Senator Specter, you put out a Twitter today which was pretty tough about your new opponent in the Democratic primary. Quote, "his months of indecisiveness on his candidacy raise a real question as to his competency to handle the tough rapid fire decisions required of a senator. During his continuing tax-payer financed self-promotion tour around the state, Sestak should explain why, when Pennsylvanians are working harder, he can barely show up for work."

Is this your sentiment towards this guy?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (D), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, Chris, he's missed 105 votes; worst record of any Pennsylvania member of the House of Representatives. He's AWOL, been absent without leave. If he were still in the Navy, he would shall court martialed. Now he wants to be promoted. How can you be promoted with a voting record like that?

MATTHEWS: What do you think of Sestak?

SPECTER: I think he's a fine Congressman, and ought to stay in the House of Representatives. Look, I want to talk about myself in this campaign. I want to talk about what I've done for jobs in Pennsylvania.

MATTHEWS: Right.

SPECTER: Increased funding for health care, education, environmental protection; the experience I have had touching all 67 counties. Listen, I have been in a lot of tough campaigns, and I'm ready for another. I'm ready to take on all comers. It's nice to have President Obama and Vice President Biden and Governor Rendell all endorsing me. But I'm taking my case to the people. That's what I have always done and I'm going to do it again.

MATTHEWS: You said you wanted, senator, to talk about yourself. Let's talk about you politically. Last year, you were campaigning with McCain and Palin. Did you vote for them?

SPECTER: Yes, sir.

MATTHEWS: What do you say now about your choice? Do you think it was a good choice at the time? Seriously, as a voter, as an American, as a Pennsylvanian, do you think they would have been a better choice than what we have now?

SPECTER: I thought that they were the better choice. And I was trying to work within the Republican party, and trying to bring moderation to the Republican party. The decisive step I took was when I heard President Obama early this year say we were on the verge of sliding into a 1929 Depression, and a new president with a new mandate. And I voted for the stimulus package.

Now, up until then, Biden and Rendell and a lot of people had been trying to get me to become a Democrat. When I voted for the stimulus package, I had more Republicans urging me to become a Democrat than the Democrats. And the effort to bring moderation to the Republican party was not successful. And I feel very comfortable as a Democrat.

MATTHEWS: Yes, I know. I think-obviously, you were way back when. I remember. Let me ask you about how you are personally as a voter. We just had-we just taped the interview with Pat Toomey, and he seemed very uncomfortable when I asked him, did you vote for Sarah Palin, because she's gotten a bad press the last few months?

Are you comfortable now that you voted for her on the ticket, rather than say Joe Biden? I mean, he's a guy-he's a pal of yours, I think very much a strong-it's funny, but you guys voted for Palin and now you just turned and say-like you don't even know her anymore.

SPECTER: Well, I know her. I met her. And as a matter of party, I supported McCain and Palin. But when-

MATTHEWS: But what does that feel like now? You say you're comfortable as a Democrat. Is it comfortable to remember that you thought you'd make Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from the presidency? Does that feel comfortable?

SPECTER: Well, I didn't-

MATTHEWS: Right now.

SPECTER: Chris, I didn't exactly think my vote would be decisive. But when you're in a party and you work for a party and you're trying to work within the structure to moderate the party, I think that's the correct thing to do.

But parties change. Look here, Ronald Reagan changed parties. Winston Churchill changed parties. Phil Graham, Dick Shelby. It's not so unusual. And in my case, I think there was good provocation to do it, and I think it was the right thing.

MATTHEWS: Well, you're starting with the heavy weights. I can't argue with you about Churchill. He did it twice. In fact, he said he switched to liberal and then back to Tory. He said anybody can rat. It takes somebody special to re-rat. OK, you got me there. I love Churchill.

Let me ask you, what is the fight about between you-it isn't just going to be about this Mickey Mouse who had the most absentees, is it? Is that going to be the vote, how many absences the other guy had, or is it going to be about policy?

SPECTER: Well, I have a very strong record, Chris, on matters which have traditionally been on the liberal side. I heard Mr. Toomey a few minutes ago. He called me an out and out liberal again and again and again. The AFL-CIO endorsed my candidacy. Only Republican to get it.

So it's a matter of who can do more. Look here, in August, I'm bringing in the secretary of veterans affairs to Pennsylvania, to Philadelphia and to Pittsburgh, to look at what's going on and to give better care.

I'm bringing in the secretary of transportation, Ray Lahood. I'm trying to get a train from Center City to Redding, to take pressure off the expressway.

The experience I have had with Sotomayor I think showed, in the questioning that I have on her-and I was critical of her in not answering questions, and got into the Bork hearings, on the myth that Bork was Borked (ph) on a verb. And my background and my experience, I can do a lot more for Pennsylvania than my opponent.

MATTHEWS: Well, I'm with you on Bork, by the way, for what it's worth. I think you were right about Bork. Let me ask you about this question. You voted for McCain last time, but the president of the United States now, of course, is Barack Obama. And you support him now because of what he had to do on the stimulus package. You made that clear.

Isn't it ironic that he's going to come in and campaign for you in a primary against Joe Sestak, who voted for him?

SPECTER: Well, I think it makes sense, because when I cast the vote for the stimulus package, along with the two senators from Maine, that was decisive. And President Obama called me to thank me for it, and all of this time Biden was saying, you really ought to be a Democrat. And as soon as I made the change, he invited me to the White House the next day and endorsed me.

Now, that's-he's the leader of the party. But I think when President Obama endorses me, he's a pragmatist. And what happened last year, my vote didn't defeat him. I didn't expect it to defeat him. My vote for the stimulus package made his program come into effect.

MATTHEWS: It sure did. Let me ask you, senator, you have been in the Senate for 30 years. You have had no real problems. You have been re-elected, renominated rather easily. This race you're at least I think a 50/50 shot. Everybody knows it's a tough race coming. It's a very evenly divided state. Is this your last term, for 36 years? Will that be enough for Arlen Specter as U.S. senator?

SPECTER: I think it would be pretty tough to run again. But I believe with Churchill on never say never. But Chris-Chris, you're not right that I've had tough elections. In 1992, the year of the woman, I won by 2.7 percent. I won a primary by 1.25 percent. I was elected against Flaherty in 1980 by three percent.

I'm the only Republican-I broke the string of Democratic victories in Philadelphia, as you know. You were-

MATTHEWS: I know all about you, sir. I voted for you back in '67 for mayor. Look, senator, I was trying to be nice. I'm sorry I said these were easy races. You've had tough races. You look good. You're going to be tough to beat. Senator Arlen Specter, Democrat.

SPECTER: I feel good.

MATTHEWS: After all these years.

SPECTER: I'm on the top of my game.

MATTHEWS: I know that's your line.

SPECTER: I started off as a JFK Democrat. The Democrats wouldn't take me for DA. The Republicans asked me to run. I kept my registration as a Democrat. Now I'm back, and in full swing, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Forget James Cromlisch (ph), only one guy to remember.

Thank you very much, Senator Arlen Specter, a once and current Democratic.

Up next, we'll talk to US Congressman Joe Sestak, who is a Democrat forever, I guess, who is challenging Specter in the primary. You're watching HARDBALL, the HARDBALL primary, the first one in the country, in Pennsylvania, on MSNBC.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Now with the newest candidate from Pennsylvania, the Democrat who has just challenged Senator Specter, Congressman Joe Sestak. Congressman, admiral, let me ask you this: Specter just hit you with the fact that you're traveling around the state on taxpayer-financed whatever. What's he talking about?

REP. JOE SESTAK (D), PENNSYLVANIA: I don't know. And I really don't.

But look, anyone-

MATTHEWS: Was your gas paid for by the government?

SESTAK: No.

MATTHEWS: What does he mean, then?

SESTAK: I'm sure Arlen didn't mean to misspeak. His staff probably misinformed him. No, this is obviously from campaign money. I just think he was misinformed.

MATTHEWS: What about missing all those votes? He puts out a blog site everyday showing when you do "THE ED SHOW," when you do local television. Every time you miss a vote because you're on TV, he's got it on his blog site. What do you make of that?

SESTAK: Ed-I mean, Chris, you know we keep our office open seven days a week. In our district, we've handled just under 10,000 constituency cases in the first two years, three times the normal Congressional office. In Washington, D.C., we've actually passed more bills this year than either senator of Pennsylvania, co-sponsored more bills than any other representative except four.

And finally, we move for the first time in 12 years money into autism. It's an epidemic throughout this nation. And we have the very first bill in 17 years pass the House of Representatives that took care of elder abuse, because Pennsylvania, where I have been to all 67 counties in three weeks in July, has an increase of 36 percent in elder abuse.

We work hard every day, Chris, and you know that. And that's what matters, because when I went to those 67 counties, some of those counties when I asked them how the recession was, as a result of the last eight years, said, it's not that bad. We were hurting so much anyway.

Washington never kept the middle class, the working families, in mind.

That's why I'm running.

MATTHEWS: Congressman, I want to salute you for running. I think Pennsylvanians deserve a choice. I grew up there. I think democracy means a choice, and I think that's great.

Let me ask you about the president, the former president. He went to North Korea, to rescue those two young journalists. He did a heroic job doing that. Will he come to Pennsylvania, if he can go to Pyongyang-can he come to Pennsylvania for a guy who supported the Clintons, who worked for the Clintons in the National Security Council? Does the president, the former president, give you any commitment he'll come in and work for you?

Barack Obama, who you voted for, is going up there and campaigning for Arlen Specter, who voted for John McCain and Sarah Palin. I know this is ironic. Will you get the Clintons at least in for you?

SESTAK: I would never ask president Clinton to come in for me at all.

MATTHEWS: Why?

SESTAK: Here's why. When I worked for president Clinton, I recognized that there's the president and then there's the office of the presidency. And although he is a former president, he's still attached to the office of the presidency. Even to begin to think that I would ever place someone I work for into a place of potential embarrassment with the present president, I would never do that.

There's not only loyalty down, there's loyalty up. I would not do that because I respect that office of the presidency. Besides, I really do like running alone. I've yet to have anyone ask me who's endorsed you or who do you know. They want to know what I'm going to do for them and will I be there for them tomorrow.

MATTHEWS: I watched the Clintons campaign for Barack Obama. And they did a hell of a job for him last time. I wonder why you see there's a conflict, why the Clintons don't owe you-not owe you, but feel they should help a guy who's been so loyal to them, working for them, always being a Hillary Clinton person, always being a Bill Clinton person. It seems-I'm not going to ask anymore because you said you think it's a conflict.

SESTAK: If I could answer that-if I could, though, is I didn't do that because I wanted something back. I did that because I believed in Mrs. Clinton, as I believe in President Obama today.

Look, I understand President Obama. It's tough down there. He probably just wanted the insurance of an extra vote. But that's for 2009. We Pennsylvanians have to worry about 2010 through 2016. We need new ideas and new energy.

Going around these 67 counties in three weeks, I have to tell you, somebody in Washington, D.C. forgot about them, or else we wouldn't have need an economic stimulus bill.

MATTHEWS: Your trouble is that you're traveling around this state to 67 counties, and nobody knows until you tell us. Arlen Specter's going to spend 30 million dollars in TV advertising to croak you. What can you do about it?

SESTAK: Look, I'll have more than sufficient money in order to get my message out. But I have to tell you-and you know us Pennsylvanians because you're one of us. This is where the Whiskey Rebellion began. We're pretty independent-minded. Nobody is asking us who endorsed you, who do you know. They want to know, are you going to work for us. And I'm going to work for them.

MATTHEWS: I salute you. I salute your guts in making this race a real race for the people of Pennsylvania.

SESTAK: Thanks.