LOU DOBBS: The House Intelligence Committee, tonight, beginning its investigation into whether the Bush administration broke laws by not telling Congress about some classified programs. The committee opened that investigation late last week after months of controversy over the CIA.

Joining us for tonight's "Face-Off" debate, two members of the House Intelligence Committee. Democrat Rush Holt, who says it's the responsibility of the Congress to make certain that the CIA is doing what it's supposed to do. And Republican Pete Hoekstra, the ranking member of the committee, who says the investigation is a distraction, a waste of time and money.

Gentlemen, first of all, thank you both for being here.

REP. RUSH HOLT, (D-NJ) HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Good to be with you, Lou.

REP. PETE HOEKSTRA, (R) HOUSE INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Good to be with you

DOBBS: Congressman Holt, what is this investigation -- what do you hope to learn?

HOLT: Well, as the chairman of the committee has presented it, it has a fairly narrow scope. I've been asking for a long time that we have something with a broader scope. It goes far beyond who was briefed on what, when, far beyond one particular program, but provide the kind of oversight that the intelligence community has not had, really, for years.

DOBBS: Will this go to the --

HOLT: It's not to cast doubt on them, but it's to say that any unexamined behavior is risky. You want the best results possible. And just as you don't want CEOs auditing their own books, or children devising and grading their own tests, there should be an external review.

DOBBS: Congressman Hoekstra, your thoughts?

HOEKSTRA: I think what Rush is describing is a very essential function of the Intelligence Committee. Actually, though, what they're doing is -- we're kind of watching what the Democrats and House Intelligence Committee are going through, and the divisions that they have with the -- their own leadership in the intelligence community, the people appointed by President Obama. They've gone much further than saying we're going to have a review or an investigation.

You know, the speaker of the House has said the CIA lies all the time. The chairman of the committee now has accused the CIA of lying. Seven Democrats on the committee have accused, or come close to, accusing Leon Panetta for misleading them and misleading the House with statements he made back in May.

So, as soon as the Democrats resolve the differences between themselves as to how they view the intelligence community, I'm more than willing, as are the other Republican colleagues, to do a review of what needs to be told to Congress and when we need to be told. We're very willing to be a constructive part of this process.

DOBBS: Congressman Holt.

HOLT: You know, Peter, it's good to be with you.

It's not the same Peter Hoekstra that I served on this committee so many years with. You have complained as vigorously as anyone about our need to play 20 questions, how when the intelligence agencies come before the committee, they find every opportunity to conceal or prevaricate, use the words you want, mislead. If we don't ask the right question, they won't tell us. And sometimes if we do ask the right question they won't tell us.

DOBBS: Let me see if I can ask the right question here.

HOLT: Yes.

DOBBS: It's pretty clear that they National Security Act of '47 says the CIA "shall keep the Congress Intelligence Committee fully and completely informed of all covert actions" and then it gives and escape clause, except in those areas in which there are sensitive matters and the executive doesn't want to do that.

With that loophole, and a program that apparently was not implemented, or carried out, why -- what can you possibly do?

HOLT: Well, are you asking me, Lou?

DOBBS: Yes, I am.

HOLT: Well, the question is not whether the program was carried out. First of all, it was operational. But the law requires that Congress be kept fully and currently informed even for anticipated operations. So, there's no question that there was a responsibility, and I would argue a legal obligation, to keep Congress fully and currently informed in this case, but the public should want it. The CIA themselves should want it, to minimize the risk of big mistakes.

DOBBS: Well, if you say that program is operational -

Congressman Hoekstra said it wasn't operational. Given that - and you've been critical of the CIA, Congressman. Was it operational, first of all, in your judgment? And, secondly, with that escape clause in the '47 Security Act, what is this about?

HOEKSTRA: Well, Lou, I think from my perspective, we'll have to define what operational means. Does it mean there were planning and training dollars spent on this? According to press reports, it appears, that yes, there were. Was the full intent of the program ever carried out? That's talking about potentially capturing or killing Al Qaeda leaders. Again, press reports indicate that that never happened.

I think what we do need to do -- Rush is exactly right. I've been a very, very harsh critic of when the CIA has not been forthright to the committee. When the inspector general came back and said, you know, shoot down the missionary pilots in Peru, you were misled by the intelligence community. Hey, I called for accountability. In May of 2006 when people within the community came and told me - through the backdoor - and said hey there's some programs you're not being briefed on, I wrote the president a classified letter. And said I want to be briefed and I want the committee briefed on these things. At that time, Director Hayden came and briefed us on some of these programs.

I do think what the committee needs to do -and we can do this on a bipartisan basis.

(CROSS TALK)

HOEKSTRA: What we need to do, is we have to do, you know, take the ambiguity out of and on a timely and fully basis, we have to clarify that and move forward.

DOBBS: Let me ask you this, the speaker of your House has said that the CIA lied to her. Seven Democrats, sending that letter off to Leon Panetta, who is the one who disclosed there was such a program, asking him to apologize, effectively, for defending the institution.

One can't help but think of the '74 Church Commission, from which the CIA and intelligence community required three decades, some would argue longer, to recover. I mean, why this -- why, given the fact that you have the ability to do this, in closed committee, and to do so with great sensitivity, isn't it happening that way, rather than in full view? If it's going to be partially in view, then don't the American people have the right to know precisely what's going on?

HOLT: If we had longer time, Lou, I would engage you in a longer conversation about the Church Committee.

DOBBS: Since we don't, would you just answer my question, Congressman?

HOLT: But to see that the CIA complies with the law is not to set it back. It's not something that the CIA has to recover from. To say that it took decades to recover from the Church Committee, which held the intelligence community accountable for spying on Americans for assassinations, for a number of other things that were clearly illegal. I don't think should be presented as something they have to recover from.

HOEKSTRA: Lou, I think what the community does have to recover from, and what is sending shockwaves through the community today is that the third most powerful person in the country, the speaker of the House, says that they lie all the time. The chairman of the committee has said the same thing. Seven Democrats on the committee have said that their current director perhaps has misled them.

The attorney general is, you know, perhaps as soon as this week going to announce that they may begin investigations to prosecute people within the CIA. That's the wrong road to go while the nation is still under threat.

DOBBS: And I appreciate that. I thank you both for giving me an answer. And to be clear, Congressman Holt, when I said recover from, I talking about a Congress that was basically, for a period of over two decades absolutely hostile to the CIA, and intelligence community, and it is also an historical lesson. I think you would agree that on September 11th, the then-director of the CIA, said it would take five years to build a covert force, because that's what we have been reduced to.

HOLT: Right, all the more reason they shouldn't go unexamined. (CROSS TALK)

DOBBS: Oh, by the way, put me down as an all for oversight. I'm all for oversight.

HOEKSTRA: Absolutely.

DOBBS: Thank you, both.

HOLT: Sure. Thanks, Lou.