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January 26, 2009

David Axelrod on Charlie Rose

Charlie Rose

CHARLIE ROSE: We begin tonight with David Axelrod, senior adviser to
President Obama. He was chief strategist to the president during the
campaign. Today, he works a short distance from the Oval Office. He will
continue to serve in a key role as the administration begins to adopt an
ambitious agenda.

At the White House today, the president and the secretary of state met
with Middle East envoy George Mitchell before he departed for a Middle East
tour that includes stops in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel, and the
Palestinian territories. Earlier in the day, the president announced
measures that could allow California and 13 other states to adopt stricter
car emission and fuel efficiency standards. The policy changes were just
the beginning of a sweeping green agenda that the president laid out during
the campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Barack Obama, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: California has shown
bold and bipartisan leadership through its effort to forge 21st century
standards, and over a dozen states have followed its lead. But instead of
serving as a partner, Washington stood in their way. This refusal to lead
risks the creation of a confusing and patchwork set of standards that hurts
the environment and the auto industry.

The days of Washington dragging its heels are over. My administration
will not deny facts; we will be guided by them. We cannot afford to pass
the buck or push the burden onto the states.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLIE ROSE: On economic matters, the Senate voted today to confirm
Tim Geithner as Treasury secretary by a vote of 60 to 34. The White House
also continued to lobby for the $825 billion economic stimulus plan that
confronted opposition from Republican leaders over the weekend. The House
of Representatives could vote on the plan as early as this week.

I'm pleased to have David Axelrod back on this program to talk about
these issues and more. Welcome.

DAVID AXELROD: Thanks, Charlie, good to be here.

CHARLIE ROSE: Let me take you way back to Chicago, and that -- when
you first met Barack Obama as a young community organizer, remember that
time and tell me what you saw.

DAVID AXELROD: Well, you know, it was interesting. He had actually
been a community organizer in Chicago, went off to law school, and then
came back to Chicago to run a voter registration drive. And a friend of
mine named Betty Lou Saltzman, who is a great activist in Chicago, very
close friend of mine, called and said "I just met the most remarkable young
man, and I really want you to meet him, because -- and I know this is going
to sound odd" -- she said - "I think he could become the first black
president of the United States."

And I said, "Well, that's a pretty grandiose thought." But certainly
I wanted to meet him, and I met him. And you know, you couldn't help but
be struck by how bright he was, how, you know, open and genuine he was, and
how committed he was to doing something positive with his life. It was
clear that he wasn't someone who was out to make a killing or take his
gold-plated law degree and cash in on it. He wanted to make a difference
in the community and in the country.

And we became friends and we've been friends ever since.

CHARLIE ROSE: What do you think he has that made him president?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, I mean, he has a combination of qualities,
Charlie. One is obviously, you know, just a deep, profound kind of
intelligence and intellectual curiosity. He's, you know, he has broad
interests and he has the ability to understand things that -- whenever
we're in a policy meeting, he always drills deeper than anybody in the
room, and asks the questions you wish you had thought of. And so that's,
you know, obviously a salient quality in a guy who's running for president,
but he's got something more. I mean, he's extraordinary and ordinary.
He's ordinary in a sense that he has a real connection with people and
their lives. He identifies with people, and he views public policy as a
way of improving the lives of people in the community and the country and
the world. And so there are those -- there are those things.

And obviously, there are things you all know. I mean, he's an
extraordinary speaker. He's the best writer I know, which is a little
daunting and dismaying, actually, when you're the consultant and you're
supposed to be the writer, and you know that your client is far better than
you.

But it's also been a joy. But all of those things came together in a
year when I think people were looking for something other than the standard-
issue Washington candidate. Someone who would really bring change to this
country.

CHARLIE ROSE: He has said before, and I think he may have said it
even in the announcement speech when he announced his campaign from
Springfield, that the American people were perhaps prepared to -- there was
so much looking for something that they were prepared to, in a sense,
expect more of him than he in fact was.

DAVID AXELROD: Well, I think he always, you know, I remember him
saying early in the race -- I know that, you know, I think the American
people are ready for Barack Obama. I just hope I can be Barack Obama, or
at least the Barack Obama that they want and expect.

And you know, he, in the early part of the campaign, you know, he was
-- he felt very challenged. He essentially -- most candidates get to take
their campaign on the road and kind of test-drive it, like the equivalent
of taking a play to Topeka and New Haven before it gets to Broadway. This
play opened right up on Broadway, with the critics in the front row and the
klieg lights on, and they stayed there from the first day. And all his
mistakes and all his learning happened under that kind of pressure.

And he wasn't a great candidate when this race began. He was a great
man, I believe so deeply in him. And I think that he is a very consistent
person, and those qualities have been there from the time I first met him.

But as a candidate, he really had to grow, and he challenged himself.
And I remember we went out to a forum in Nevada early in the campaign. It
was a health care forum. Senator Clinton was speaking. They spoke back to
back. And when it was over, he was very candid about it. He said, she was
far better than I was today. She was the one who looked like the president
today, he said, but I know what I have to do and I'm going to challenge
myself, and he said, and I'm going to figure out how to be a great
candidate for president.

And you know, over the course of a few months, that's exactly what he
did. And you know, that's one of the -- you asked me about his great
qualities. That's one of the qualities that's impressed me so much about
him, is his growth curve. He's someone who takes something away from every
experience, learns from it, and grows from it. And I saw enormous growth
during the campaign.

The other thing, Charlie, that I would say is that, not only did he
grow, but he kind of dragged all of us along with him. Our worst days were
his best days. When we had a setback, when we lost a primary, or when
there was a bad story, or -- he was the guy who gathered us all together
and pointed us in the right direction. And he was always coolest and most
focused when the pressure was the greatest. And of course, that's what you
want in a president.

CHARLIE ROSE: He said, in fact, after New Hampshire, that this might
be good for us?

DAVID AXELROD: Yes. That, I'll never forget that. We were -- you
know, we went sailing into New Hampshire after winning the Iowa caucuses,
and we were frankly a little cocky as a campaign.

CHARLIE ROSE: We'll put them away in New Hampshire, right.

DAVID AXELROD: We thought -- we basically took five days of victory
laps. And meanwhile, Senator Clinton rolled up her sleeves and was
fighting for every vote, and looked like it.

And you remember, there was the incident where she became emotional at
an event in New Hampshire, and I remember we were riding on a bus and
someone said, oh, she had this breakdown. We went online and looked at it.
And I think Senator Obama and I had the same reaction to it, which was, you
know what, that was a very compelling human moment. And it just felt, we -- at the one hand, we were cocky, and on the other hand it didn't feel
right to us going into that election.

And sure enough, the next day, even though the polls said we were 10
points ahead, when we started cracking open the precincts, it was pretty
clear pretty quickly that we weren't going to win.

David Plouffe, our campaign manager, and I went to see Senator Obama,
who was in a suite with his wife, Michelle. We asked them to come out into
the hallway. We said, you know, boss, we're going to come up a couple of
percentage points short here. And he just leaned against the wall and he
kind of smiled wanly, and he said, "This is going to go on for a while,
isn't it?"

And the next day, we drove to Boston. He had about three hours sleep.
And we had a fund-raiser scheduled there that was supposed to be a great
celebration of the New Hampshire victory, and of course there was no
victory to celebrate. But he gave the best -- one of the best speeches of
his campaign without a note in front of him. And what he said to start
was, "I know this sounds like spin, but I think it was meant to be that we
didn't win this primary. It would have been far too easy." And he said,
change is never easy. Change is something you have to fight for, and this
would have come too easily.

So I think we were a little bit like Icarus, flying too close to the
sun. And he said, we are going to have to work for every vote from this
point on, and let me tell you why it's worth the struggle, why it's worth
the fight. And he gave a very inspirational speech after that. And I
think everybody there -- people were laughing and crying at the end.
Everybody was on their feet.

And that was one of those moments that I mentioned, where we could
have been down, and he picked us up. And that's a wonderful quality in a
leader.

CHARLIE ROSE: He seems at times to be of the moment and above the
moment.

DAVID AXELROD: It's an interesting observation, Charlie. I think
part of that is the writer in him, you know. I think that he -- I think
that he -- I always have the sense that he's participating in the moment,
as you say, but also observing the moment and taking it all in. And in
another sense, you know, I think that there is -- you know, he does
separate out a little. Not in an arrogant way, but in a way that, you
know, leaders sometimes do.

So he's got a wonderful temperament, and I think if you can combine a
great temperament with great intellectual depth, with the brilliance that
he has -- you know, you've got the two qualities that are probably most
important for the job he now holds.

CHARLIE ROSE: All right. He's now in the White House and you're now
there close by. You are now facing a stimulus bill that you want to pass
through Congress, and it was much debated over the weekend, and you watched
that and you were part of that.

Is he -- are you going to get what you want out of this? Have you
found the right balance between investment or spending and tax cuts that
will give you the kind of victory you want to do the job you want to do and
not expose a kind of conflict that will not serve you well in future
battles?

DAVID AXELROD: No, I think so, Charlie. First of all, it's been a
very healthy process. The president's met with leaders of Congress,
Republican and Democrat. They've had a good and free and open exchange. I
think that there's been give-and-take, as there should be. And I think
everybody understands that we're facing an extraordinary economic crisis
that's getting worse by the day. There's not time for kind of dilatory
tactics or the gamesmanship that has sometimes characterizes politics in
Washington. We need to act and we need to act quickly, and we need to act
boldly.

I think the program that's moving through Congress right now will meet
that test. It will help create 3 or 4 million jobs in the next couple of
years. But it will also do it by putting people to work, doing things that
will have long-term benefit to the country -- energy independence;
computerizing the nation's health compare system so as to reduce costs and
improve care; building the classrooms of the 21st century so our kids can
compete; and of course repairing our bridges and roads and ports and
waterways, some of which are badly in need of refurbishment.

All of these things are going to strengthen us in the long term. So I
feel -- and you know, of course, the middle-class tax cut that he talked
about so often in the campaign, putting some money in the pockets of the
struggling middle class, along with some business taxes that will help spur
investment. I think it's a very balanced package, and one that will
benefit the economy, and the economy needs it so badly, as I said.

CHARLIE ROSE: Why did you see John McCain and several other
Republicans on television over the weekend saying they didn't feel like
they had been consulted?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, I mean, I can't speak to Senator McCain
specifically. I know that I sat in a meeting last week with the Republican
leaders of the House and Senate, along with the Democratic leaders, and
everybody in the room got a chance to express themselves. The president's
going up to Capitol Hill tomorrow to meet with both the Republican and
Democratic -- I'm sorry, with both the Republican House and Senate
caucuses. So I think there's been a level of outreach and communication
that's been extraordinary by Washington standards, and certainly unusual by
the standards of the last eight years. And that's what we want to do.

We -- look, we're not going to agree on everything, and we know that.
There's a reason there are two parties. There's a different point of view
about how these problems should be approached, not every -- and neither
party has cornered the market on wisdom. So we want to combine the best
thinking we can find. But the important thing is to have a dialogue, and I
think there is a dialogue going on.

CHARLIE ROSE: How much time do you have, do you believe, to fix the
economy, for America to see the turnaround? Is it a year, is it 18 months?
How long before people begin to say, they promised us but they can't
deliver?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, you know, I think one of the encouraging things
that we've seen in all the polling and in anecdotal kind of conversations
is that the American people are at once optimistic right now and realistic
there. Optimistic that this president can help lead the country out of the
morass we're in, out of the mess he's inherited, but they also understand
how profound the mess is.

And so, what you see are poll after poll, people saying that what the
president's been saying, which is it's not going to be a matter of days,
weeks or months; this is going to take years to resolve. And they
understand that it's going to take years to resolve. They want to see us
moving in the right direction, and -- but they know that it's going to take
a while for the results of all of this to become evident in terms of our
employment and some of the other measures that are obviously key to
progress.

So I don't know what the exact point at which people will say, OK,
you've had enough time. But I see a great deal of patience and wisdom in
the American people right now, and a determination to see this thing
through.

And so, you know, we'll see. But I have confidence that if we do the
things we have to and if we don't devolve into the sort of Washington
gridlock politics, that we can make a difference here, and begin to move in
the right direction again.

CHARLIE ROSE: What else is on the agenda to change the economic
crisis? Tim Geithner is now in place.

DAVID AXELROD: Yes. Well, obviously, one of the challenges we have
is the continuing crisis in the financial sector. You know, the other part
of the equation is to make sure that there's credit flowing to businesses
large and small, and families across the country, to people who want to pay
for a college education for their kids, pay for a car. I mean, we have to
have reliable credit available. And so the financial crisis has to be
resolved, and that's another primary item on Secretary Geithner's agenda as
he takes office tonight.

CHARLIE ROSE: I know that you read newspapers, as I do. Every day on
the front page of some newspaper, there are these two words: "Banks
nationalized." It is the idea that there may need to be more than an
existing capital injection giving the federal government more than 50
percent ownership in major financial institutions. Is that going to
happen?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, I am going to let Tim Geithner address these
things, as he will in detail in the coming days and weeks, as he takes
control of this process.

But I think -- you know, the president has said that he will do what's
necessary to stabilize, to stabilize our financial sector. He believes
that we should do that within the parameters of the private sector. But
obviously, the government's going to have to play an aggressive role here.
The problem is profound, and it's going to take -- it's going to take the
government to help resolve it and stabilize things so that we can move on
from here.

CHARLIE ROSE: When will he make entitlement reforms or call for them?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, he's spoken about it already, and we are going
to have a summit to discuss these matters with the leaders of Congress. I
think the process of addressing these things will begin there.

You know, we now face -- we're facing not just the crush of demography
of an aging baby boom generation, but obviously a major budget crisis that
we've inherited here. Even before we undertook this economic recovery
package, we were inheriting deficits in excess of $1 trillion. So all of
this suggests that we are going to have to move on these issues, and this
president's willing to do it. He's going to do it in partnership with
members of Congress, and we hope that out of this upcoming summit, we'll
begin the process of accomplishing that.

CHARLIE ROSE: Including universal health care? Tom Daschle will be
spearheading that. When will that, you know, what's the timetable for
that?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, look, we want to move on the whole array of
health care reforms, not just making sure that everyone has the health care
that they need, but also that those who have health care see a reduction in
their costs.

As you know, Charlie, the inflation in health care costs has far
outstripped inflation as a whole, and it's crushing families and
businesses. We want to slow that down and give people some relief. And
that was a fundamental commitment of the president's during the campaign.
So we want to do both things.

But in terms of a timetable, we have to work that out. We have a
budget coming up. We're addressing those issues now. I think everyone has
to be realistic, though, that, you know, some of the things that we'd like
to do are going to take a little bit of time, given the constraints we have
to operate in, because of the situation we've inherited. And I think most
Americans understand that. We want to be -- we want to be both responsive
and responsible, and we're going to do that.

CHARLIE ROSE: George Mitchell I think is off tonight to the Middle
East.

DAVID AXELROD: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: And met with the president and secretary of state.
What are his instructions? Is this a simply a fact-finding mission for
George Mitchell, or is he going over there with a message from the
president of the United States?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, I think he's certainly going over there as an
envoy of the president of the United States and the secretary of state.
And as you know, there isn't a better mediator in the world perhaps than
George Mitchell. He proved that in Northern Ireland and so on. Whether he
can -- you know, what he can do to help facilitate discussions I think
remains to be seen, but you know, one thing that this president believes
strongly, and it's one of the things he talked about for two years during
the campaign, is that we need to be engaged early and aggressively in the
matter of the Middle East and trying to be a positive force in resolving
these very, very difficult issues there, that have become more complicated
in the last few weeks. And that's what Senator Mitchell is going to try
and do.

CHARLIE ROSE: Will there be a difference in the relationship between
this president and Israel and the previous president and Israel?

DAVID AXELROD: I think that it's important to note that this
president recognizes the special relationship between the United States and
Israel, and that's not going to change. Every president has, you know, a
different approach, and there are -- and they bring new ideas and new
energy to the process. But you know, the survival and security of Israel
remains a great priority for the United States, and it is a priority to
this president.

But part of that, I should add, Charlie, is to try and resolve this
situation so that Israel and its neighbors can live in peace, and that's
our ultimate goal.

CHARLIE ROSE: Benefits Israel and the region as well.

DAVID AXELROD: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: The first meeting the president had on his first day in
the Oval Office, he brought in the appropriate military people to talk
about Iraq.

DAVID AXELROD: Yes.

CHARLIE ROSE: Just so I understand, tell me what came out of that
meeting. What is the president saying about his own timetable?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, first of all, I think what came out of that
meeting is a broad understanding that the mission now is to begin the
orderly redeployment of troops out of -- combat troops out of Iraq. It's
something that the president was committed to, something he spoke about
often during the campaign. He believes that 16 months is a reasonable
timetable to achieve that. He's asked them to go back and work up plans
and -- to accommodate that, and any alternative plans that would be
consistent with his goal to achieve this in a reasonable timetable. And
they're going to come back and do that shortly. But the process has begun
of developing those plans, and these meetings will be ongoing.

CHARLIE ROSE: What if the military that he respects comes back and
says we can't do it in 16 months? It's not in the national interest to do
it in 16 months?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, Charlie, I'm not going to prejudge what the
conversations are going to be. Obviously, he's going to listen with
interest and care to what is being said. And if reasonable arguments are
made, he's going to take that into account. He wants to do this in a
responsible way, and he will do it in a responsible way. But he believes
that that general timetable is a reasonable goal. And you know, if that --
we'll see what the conversations yield. But I guarantee you that as we
proceed, that this withdrawal is going to be carried out on something that
very much resembles the timetable that he promised.

CHARLIE ROSE: And what does he hope to accomplish? What's the
mission in Afghanistan?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, you know, this is something that he's been
discussing for several years. We've got a situation in Afghanistan where
it -- and of course across the border in Pakistan has become a haven for
terrorists who have -- who were responsible for killing 3,000 Americans and
who are actively plotting against us still. And you know, the mission
there is to first put an end to that, so that we don't have safe havens for
terrorists there. And to the degree that there can be stability there,
we'd like to bring -- help bring stability there.

CHARLIE ROSE: But if you're searching for al Qaeda, sovereignty is
not an issue.

DAVID AXELROD: Well, we want to work -- and the president has said
that we want to work closely with the Pakistanis on this issue. They have
a great interest as well in not allowing Pakistan to become a haven for
terrorism. But he also said that when there are -- if there are high value
al Qaeda targets, that it's incumbent on us to do something about it when
you have people who are plotting against us on a daily basis.

CHARLIE ROSE: What do you hope the inaugural message -- how do you
hope it was received? You and the president and the entire White House
team hope it was received by those listening around the world? If there
was a core for the world, what was it?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, you know, Charlie, before I answer that
question, let me tell you that I -- one of my other great other
recollections was in the weeks before he made the decision to run for
president, we had a meeting, a small meeting, and Michelle Obama said to
him, "What do you think you can achieve that others could not?"

CHARLIE ROSE: Good question.

DAVID AXELROD: And he said -- and he said, "Well, there are two
things I know for sure. One is when I take that oath of office, instantly
there are millions of kids all over this country who are going to look at
themselves and their prospects differently than they did before." And I
saw that all over the streets of Washington, D.C. on Inauguration Day. It
was an inspiring thing.

And he also said, "I think the world will look at us differently,
because it will be an affirmation of our higher ideals, that we'll have
lived our ideals." And I think that's true as well.

So I think that -- that alone engendered a positive reaction around
the world.

But I think his message of engagement, that we have an interest in the
world, that we want partnership with the world, that we are willing to work
with anyone who is willing to work with us in the cause of peace and
progress. And that as he said, if people are -- if there are those -- if
there are those who have a clenched fist, if they are willing to unclench
their fist, we'll greet them with an outstretched hand. I think it was an
important message.

He said throughout the campaign, we need to reengage in the world. I
think he sent a strong message on inauguration day that that engagement has
begun.

CHARLIE ROSE: And did it also mark the beginning of a post-racial
age?

DAVID AXELROD: Well, I think it certainly was an important watershed
event in our history, in our evolution as a people. It was a great barrier
that fell.

I felt one of the moving lines in his speech is when he noted that
there he was, taking the oath of office, a man whose father 60 years ago
might not have been served at a local restaurant.

You know, I think that's -- we all should feel great pride in our
country, that we can say that. And you know, does this erase all, you
know, vestiges of past conflict? Of course not. But it's a great step
forward. And I think that as people embrace this president -- and they've
embraced him in a really impressive way -- I think that can't help but move
our country forward in that regard. And you know, I'm so thrilled for
that. I think, you know, we are a better and stronger country for that.
And I think our future's brighter because of it.

CHARLIE ROSE: David, thank you. I hope we can do this often.

DAVID AXELROD: I appreciate it, Charlie. Great to be with you.

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