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August 03, 2008

Sen. Graham & Tom Daschle on "Fox News Sunday"

Fox News Sunday

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace and this is "Fox News Sunday."

A war of words on the campaign trail -- Barack Obama and John McCain on the issue of race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The only strategy they've got in this election is to try to scare you about me. "He doesn't look like all the presidents on the dollar bills."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: Race will not have any role in my campaign, nor is there any place for it. And I'm disappointed that he's using it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: What effect will negative campaigning have on voters? We'll ask top campaign advisers Lindsey Graham, McCain's closest friend in the Senate, and former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, co-chair of the Obama campaign.

Then, Congress skips town for a summer break without addressing the energy crisis. How will that play across America? We'll ask our Sunday gang -- Fred Barnes, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams.

And our Power Player of the Week uses her fame to help stop a global epidemic, all right now on "Fox News Sunday."

And hello again from Fox News in Washington. Well, the presidential campaign went negative this week with Barack Obama and John McCain talking more about each other's character than the issues.

Joining us now, top insiders from both camps -- Senator Lindsey Graham, who is McCain's closest ally in Congress, and former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, national co-chair of the Obama campaign.

And, Senators, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday".

DASCHLE: Thank you, Chris.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

WALLACE: Let's start with the comment that Senator Obama made three times on Wednesday which started the confrontation over race. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: So nobody really thinks that Bush or McCain have a real answer for the challenges we face, so what they're going to try to do is make you scared of me. You know, "Oh, he's not patriotic enough. He's got a funny name."

(LAUGHTER)

You know, "He doesn't look like all those other presidents on those dollar bills."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator Graham, when you see the context and the lighthearted mood, do you really think that Barack Obama was playing racial politics there?

GRAHAM: Absolutely, because in June, a month before -- and he said, "And did I mention that they're going to say he's black?"

So to say that the Florida speech where he says, "They're going to scare you, I'm young, I'm inexperienced, I've got a funny name and did I mention he's black," well, John McCain doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

And there's no doubt in my mind that what Senator Obama is trying to suggest -- that he's a victim of something.

And when he mentioned Bush and McCain have no real answers -- if you really believe that you're running against a guy with no answers to America's challenges, why won't you debate him?

Why won't you go to a town hall, stand in front of normal people and answer their questions?

So the whole thing is very disturbing. Why won't you allow the American people to look under the hood and test your tires on your ideas, but you say your opponent has no ideas?

And you also suggest he's going to say the way he's going to get elected is to talk about your name, the way you look, and John McCain doesn't want to get elected on that. So the idea he's not interjecting race, quite frankly, is not credible.

We went through this in South Carolina. John has an adopted daughter from Bangladesh. On the right, they said John McCain had an illegitimate black daughter. Now, without John doing one thing, they're suggesting that Obama is a victim of John McCain interjecting, "He looks funny and sounds funny." We're not going to put up with this.

WALLACE: All right.

Senator Daschle, we are going to get to the question of debating in the next segment, but Obama says words matter, and what he said there -- and it was the first time he specifically mentioned -- before he'd said, "They're going to say."

For the first time, he specifically said, "John McCain and George W. Bush are going to try to scare you about the way I look, and that I don't look like other presidents."

DASCHLE: It wasn't how he looks. What he was saying, Chris, all along is that Barack Obama has a different resume, a different style, a different approach. He has brought real change to Washington, and...

WALLACE: But, Senator, let me just...

DASCHLE: ... this is status quo versus change, and...

WALLACE: ... ask you, he said, "You know, he doesn't look like all those presidents on the dollar bills."

DASCHLE: Well, he doesn't. He's younger. He's younger. He's...

WALLACE: So that's what he was saying, just that he's younger?

DASCHLE: No, no, no. He has never said that he believes that John McCain is a racist. He's never said anything that -- that he was using race in this effort. You can't quote him. You can't find him saying that.

What he is saying is that he is a different kind of candidate, a different kind of leader, a person who has come to Washington with a different agenda, of someone who really does want to be a vehicle for change. This is change versus the status quo.

And where the McCain campaign couldn't get any traction on the issues, they go after him personally. They go after him as a person who really doesn't fit the political mold.

So that's really where I think the American people ought to -- deserve more and really expect a higher level of debate than this. What we ought to be talking about, Chris, are the issues. We ought to be talking about energy. We ought to be talking about Iraq and foreign policy...

WALLACE: We're going to get -- we're going to get to those in a moment.

DASCHLE: ... the economy.

But we're talking about Britney Spears and Paris Hilton. Who asked about Britney Spears and Paris Hilton? It was John McCain...

WALLACE: May I ask John...

DASCHLE: ... who, I may add...

WALLACE: Wait, wait, wait. May I just ask Senator Graham a question about that?

Even before the race controversy, Obama -- or, rather, McCain was running one negative ad about Obama. And let's take a look at one attack and Obama's response. Here they are.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: He's the biggest celebrity in the world. But is he ready to lead?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: He's practicing the politics of the past. John McCain -- same old politics, same failed policies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator Graham, doesn't Obama have a point that McCain right now is spending more time and more of his money running down Obama than presenting his own plans?

GRAHAM: John is out there every day all over the country at every -- in town hall meetings taking every question anybody can ask him, having his ideas tested by the...

WALLACE: So why is he running an ad about Britney Spears and Paris Hilton?

GRAHAM: Because Senator Obama did something no one has ever done that I know of -- go overseas, and have a rally in front of 200,000 adoring fans, and talk like you're the embodiment of America, that -- he is, in fact, living off celebrity, not ideas, and one of the campaign issues is credibility.

To say that Barack Obama did not intentionally inject the idea that he was going to be a victim of his name and his race is a lie. You do not go to Florida in June and say, "They're going to try to make you afraid of me. He's young. He's inexperienced. He's got a funny name. And did I mention he's black." Well, who the hell is "they"?

Later on in July, just a couple of days ago, three different times, he's going to say, "Bush," -- he said, "Bush and McCain are going to make you afraid of me. He doesn't -- he's got a funny name. You know, he doesn't look like all those other presidents on those dollar bills."

To say that that's not trying to interject the idea that you're a victim of John McCain trying to make fun of your name and your racial background is a lie.

DASCHLE: Chris, Chris...

GRAHAM: Now, that needs to be admitted to. We're not going to run a campaign like he did in the primary. Every time somebody brings up a challenge to who you are and what you believe, "You're a racist." That's not going to happen in this campaign.

DASCHLE: Well, first of all, again, I say John McCain is not a racist. Nobody's ever accused him of being that. But you've just seen the evidence here. You've just seen exactly what Barack is talking about.

If you're going to say that Barack Obama is no better, no different than Britney Spears or Paris Hilton, what is that? That's exactly what Barack is talking about, Chris. That's exactly what Lindsey seems to overlook here.

And you know, we've talked about changing the tone. I can't think of a worse tone than simply going negative and using these kinds of accusations and allegations over and over again.

WALLACE: But, Senator...

DASCHLE: I mean, there isn't a thing -- I can't think of a positive thing that John McCain has had to say about Barack Obama for more than two months now.

WALLACE: But, Senator Daschle...

DASCHLE: Ever since the time he was the nominee.

WALLACE: ... if I may, McCain, it seemed to me and, I think, to a lot of people, tapped into a growing issue, and that is the issue of whether Obama is arrogant and acting as if he's already president.

I want to show you what he said to House Democrats in a closed caucus this week. Let's put it up on the screen. This is Obama talking to them, according to someone who was in the meeting. "This is the moment the world is waiting for. I have become a symbol of the possibility of America returning to our best traditions."

Senator Daschle, wouldn't a little modesty serve Obama well?

DASCHLE: Chris, first of all, that's a third-hand report. And I've never heard Barack Obama used word "I," never. In all the time I've been with him, he has not used the word "I." He uses "we."

WALLACE: "I am a citizen of America, I'm a citizen of the world?"

DASCHLE: That's not what he said. I doubt very much...

WALLACE: Well, that's what he said in Berlin. I mean, we can get the tape of that, sir.

DASCHLE: He has basically -- what he is saying is that, "Look, this is an opportunity for us to take this country and this generation on a new course," that we really have to recognize that unless we change, unless we put this country back on a higher level, unless we address the issues of real interest to the American people -- the economy, the environment, the energy crisis we're facing, our precipitous fall from grace around the world -- unless we address that, we're never going to be the kind of American -- never have the kind of American future we need so badly. That was the message of Barack Obama.

WALLACE: All right. Let me deal with energy. Late Friday, Senator Obama said that -- who has repeatedly said that he opposes offshore drilling, said that as part of a comprehensive plan, he would now consider that component.

Has Obama flipped in his opposition to offshore blocking?

DASCHLE: Barack Obama has always been in favor of offshore drilling. But what he said is, "Let's use first the 68 million acres that are already out there." There is absolutely no reason why we can't begin where we've already got an opportunity.

WALLACE: But he was talking...

DASCHLE: Four million barrels...

WALLACE: Clearly, in this question on Friday, he was talking about expanded offshore drilling.

DASCHLE: Well, what he said -- what he said is, "Look, what I propose and what I would support are two different things." He's not going to lead with something like this.

But what he has said is that when Republicans and Democrats come together, Chris, to talk about solving a problem -- and Lindsey's done this on many occasions.

Working with Republicans, working with Democrats, to try to find compromise, you're going to have to give some. You're going to have a concede some things to get other things. And that's really what the Group of 10 tried to do.

They overcame their objections to some things to find the compromise, and that's what Barack was saying we ought to see more of in Washington.

WALLACE: Let me ask Senator Graham about that.

Senator McCain flipped on offshore drilling a few weeks ago.

GRAHAM: Right.

WALLACE: What's the difference?

GRAHAM: Well, he flipped more than a few weeks ago. And he will tell you, "I've changed my position. I will now support lifting the moratorium." And John McCain's going to come out with a proposal, John McCain's plan for offshore drilling.

He changed his mind because of $4 a gallon gas. It's OK to change your mind in politics if it benefits your country. Now, it's not OK to break your word. If you say you're going to accept public financing, Tom, and you sign a pledge, then you change your mind because it gives you an advantage, that's not good.

But I hope that Senator Obama will change his mind about offshore drilling. But this issue of whether or not he's a leader -- this is a good test. If you want to be a leader of this nation and solve problems that affect the American people -- and they're so disappointed in their Congress.

We're out of session -- we're out of business -- on energy when we should be in session doing the American people's business. Pick up the phone and tell Nancy Pelosi, who says offshore drilling is a hoax, Harry Reid, who says drilling is a red herring -- call the Congress back in session. He's the leader of the party.

You're a great guy. You know all these people. Let's get the Congress back in session. John will come off the campaign trail and put Barack Obama's plan for offshore drilling on the table side by side with John McCain's plan for offshore drilling, nuclear power -- John is for recycling the spent fuel. Senator Obama is not.

Let's have a debate and start voting on issues that matter to the American people.

WALLACE: Senator, Senator Graham, under that same thinking, why doesn't -- as the leader of the Republican Party, why doesn't John McCain call the president and say, "Call Congress back into special session?"

DASCHLE: Well, I don't...

WALLACE: Well, let me get -- let's let Senator Graham answer that.

GRAHAM: I think we should. I think we should go back in session. I think we...

WALLACE: Is Senator McCain going to call President Bush, as the leader of the party, the new leader of the party, and say, "Call Congress back in special session?"

GRAHAM: I will -- I'll recommend that he'll do that, that we come back off of recess and we take up a comprehensive approach to energy.

And what I would like John to do and Barack Obama to do, if he's for offshore drilling, give us a plan. Where would you drill? How many barrels would you get?

If he wants to be a leader, not a celebrity, pick up the phone -- he's the leader of the party -- and tell Nancy Pelosi to open the House up for business.

DASCHLE: You know, Chris, we've got to have some equal time here. And I've got to say what we ought to do is get the administration to do what they should have done a long time ago.

They should have opened the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. They should have shown some leadership. You don't have to call Congress back into session. Just what the White House has failed to do over the last eight years is enough to keep them busy for more than six weeks.

They're going to have all kinds of responsibilities if they take that responsibility seriously and look at what they could do with executive orders.

Why aren't we using all of that land that hasn't been drilled so far? Why haven't we begun to open up the Strategic Petroleum Reserve like we should have? Why haven't we put more emphasis on conservation? Why aren't we looking for solutions here in this country?

We have had zero leadership from the Republican White House, and that's exactly what we'll get with another four years of Republican leadership in the White House or in the Congress.

WALLACE: I want to bring up one last area, Senator Graham. Speaking of flip-flops, Senator McCain made a doozy, some would say, this week on Social Security in the space of just three days.

Let's take a look at what Senator McCain said on Sunday and then what he said on Wednesday. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: We all have to sit down together with everything on the table.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: So that means payroll tax increases are on the table as well?

MCCAIN: There is nothing that's off the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: I want to look you in the eye. I will not raise your taxes nor support a tax increase. I will not do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator Graham, after all that, a conservative columnist in the Wall Street Journal asked the question, "Is John McCain stupid?" And he went on, "This isn't a flip-flop. It's a sex change operation."

GRAHAM: Well, as I understand Senator Obama's approach to Social Security...

WALLACE: Well, I'm asking you about Senator McCain's. GRAHAM: Well, I am -- I am going to tell you. Senator Obama says that he wants to raise the Social Security tax on all income above $250,000, 12.4 percent on all income above $250,000, to save Social Security. You can't tax your way into solvency.

Senator McCain believes you cannot tax your way into Social Security solvency. If you want to deal with Social Security, you've got to deal with all the moving parts. That is whether or not you're going to allow young people to invest, have an account in their own name.

Do you adjust the age? Do you adjust -- reschedule the benefits based on upper-income people? John is not going to tax our way into solvency because it will ruin the American economy.

WALLACE: I'm just going to ask you...

GRAHAM: However...

WALLACE: I'm going to ask you a straight question.

GRAHAM: ... everything is...

WALLACE: On Sunday he said that the idea of raising the payroll tax...

GRAHAM: It's raising every year.

WALLACE: ... is on the...

GRAHAM: See, the payroll tax goes up every year based on wage growth. If we can get...

WALLACE: But he was talking about raising it on the income level as part of the solution...

GRAHAM: Yeah, that's not a solution. If it's part of a comprehensive approach -- but to raise taxes to save Social Security from bankruptcy won't happen. It's a dumb idea. It won't save Social Security. It hurt the economy.

WALLACE: This is why Lindsey's so good at what he does.

GRAHAM: And that's the big difference between him and Obama.

DASCHLE: This is the most gaffe-prone presidential race I think we've seen in a long, long time, and it takes a Lindsey, as good as he is, to try to explain it.

You can't explain away a gaffe of that magnitude. The Wall Street Journal is right. We don't know what we're going to get with John McCain. The more he talks, the less certain we are about any of the positions he's taken.

WALLACE: All right. We have to take a quick break here. But when we come back, we'll discuss the latest on Iran, on debates and the choice of vice presidential running mates. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: And we're back now with our presidential campaign insiders, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham and former Democratic Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle.

Well, the news out of Iraq this week is that five American troops were killed in combat in July, by far the lowest monthly total of the war. President Bush cut tours of duty from 15 months from a year, talks about more troops possibly coming home soon.

Senator Daschle, I know -- I don't want to go backwards to the surge and getting into Iraq originally. Going forward, what is the difference between Obama and McCain in how they will end U.S. involvement in Iraq?

DASCHLE: Well, Chris, we really don't know John McCain's position. He's had several of them. First, he said it's 100 years that we may have to be there. Then he said, "You know, maybe 16 months is a reasonable period of time." So I don't know what his latest position is.

But what Barack Obama has said from the very beginning is that we have to be consistent. We have to begin drawing down the troops. Let's put the kind of pressure on a diplomatic surge that could make a big difference in bringing about the desired result.

That's really what the Bipartisan Policy Commission had proposed, and I'm very pleased to see that not only has the Maliki government, but even the Bush administration, now acknowledged that that time frame may be realistic. So that's what Barack has said.

But the key here is not Iraq alone. The key is to look at the larger issue, to look at our foreign policy challenges and the things we have to do in Afghanistan, the things we have to do worldwide to fight the war on terror, and the other things that have to be done.

WALLACE: Well, let's -- let me bring in Senator Graham.

What do you see as the difference at this point, going forward, between Obama and McCain on ending U.S. involvement in Iraq?

GRAHAM: That Senator McCain will make sure to listen to General Petraeus. General Petraeus has earned American people's trust.

And any commander in chief, quite frankly, Tom, that doesn't listen closely to what General Petraeus and Admiral Mullen has to say are making a huge mistake.

And here's what they tell us. We want to withdraw troops based on conditions on the ground, that when we move a brigade out in the future and draw down our troops, that the enemy will not be able to take the land that we paid such a heavy price to gain, that we'll sit down in collaboration with the Iraqi government, the Iraqi military, and withdraw our troops based on conditions.

And we want them home tomorrow if we could bring them. But this issue says all you need to know about this campaign. When Iraq was about to fall apart, when John McCain said -- argued with his own administration, told Rumsfeld he was wrong, got accused by Republicans, Tom, of being disloyal, being the only voice out there that this policy is going to fail, we don't have enough troops, every Democrat, including Harry Reid, said the war was lost.

John McCain said, "We've got to send more troops." Senator Obama said, "That won't help. It will hurt." John was right about the surge. He risked his own career, and he's right about how to go forward.

WALLACE: Senator Daschle?

GRAHAM: Listen to General Petraeus.

WALLACE: Senator Daschle, you talk about looking at the whole region. Iran's president said yesterday that that country will not give up, quote, "a single iota of our nuclear rights," ignoring a deadline set by the U.S. and all of our allies around the world for ending its nuclear program.

What would President Obama do now about Iran?

DASCHLE: Well, he has been consistent from the very beginning on this, Chris. What he has said is that this -- that Iran does pose very serious threats to the region and to us, that we have to take these threats very seriously, but that the first step shouldn't be bombing the country or military confrontation.

The first steps ought to be real effort at dialogue and bringing -- ratcheting up the pressure. That's exactly now what the Bush administration is doing.

The Bush administration and others ridiculed and criticized Barack for taking that position. We've got Bill Burns actually making overtures now in Iraq...

WALLACE: Undersecretary of state.

DASCHLE: ... and we've set up a -- we've set up an intersection in Iran. That's exactly what Barack Obama has advocated.

WALLACE: Senator Graham?

GRAHAM: Well, all I can tell you is that thank God that Senator Obama wasn't making policy on Iraq. He doesn't understand to this day, Tom, that if you lose in Iraq, it's a big loss in the greater war. If you'd lost in Iraq, the biggest winner would have been Iran, the topic we're talking about. They were ready to fill the vacuum of a failed state in Iraq. Al Qaida would have claimed victory, and every moderate voice in the world...

WALLACE: All right. What would President McCain do now on Iran?

GRAHAM: It's about -- it's about moderation and extremism. The question for the world -- is Iran an extremist regime? Are they trying to develop peaceful nuclear power or a nuclear weapon?

I believe deeply that we're on a collision course with Iran, that the Europeans, the Russians and the Chinese to need to help us more, because you're right. We need to make sure sanctions work.

But here's what John McCain understands. Don't elevate the tyrant. He would never sit down with Ahmadinejad without preconditions, because that is the worst thing you could do.

Barack Obama's judgment on Iran has been terrible. He would empower the very forces we're trying to control by elevating them in the world's eye, so there's a huge difference here.

DASCHLE: Well, there's a huge difference even in terms of knowledge, of working knowledge. I mean, we -- I think John understands now that Iraq doesn't have a common border with Pakistan, and the difference between Sunni and Shia.

And I think that we can go and argue the case going all the way back from the beginning here. Was Iraq a mistake or not? Barack Obama will continue to insist...

WALLACE: We're not -- I don't want to go down that road.

DASCHLE: ... that it was a mistake. Well, but Lindsey is saying...

WALLACE: I know. But I'm the host. I don't want to.

DASCHLE: I'd love to have that debate.

WALLACE: We do have limited time. I do want to ask you, Senator Daschle -- because there obviously are some sharp differences between these two candidates.

Yesterday the Obama camp accepted the three standard presidential debates and said it is, quote, "likely that those will be the only debates in this campaign."

Whatever happened -- and this is a question that Senator Graham brought up in the first segment. Whatever happened to all the talk about debating any time, anywhere?

DASCHLE: Oh, Chris, we have offered, counter offered -- John had suggested some ideas for town hall meetings. We counter offered with some other ideas and said that we'd be happy to negotiate.

We never got a response back. So we don't know whether that was a legitimate request for some dialogue and some real possibilities for negotiating more debates and...

WALLACE: Does the Obama -- are they willing to have more than the three presidential debates post-convention?

DASCHLE: Well, at this point -- at this point, we're really down to convention time, and we've got two months. So you can't -- there really isn't a lot of time for additional debates now.

But a month ago or two months ago, when we counter proposed ideas, there was all kinds of opportunities. No one should criticize Barack Obama about debates. I don't know of any candidate, John McCain included, that has had more debates in this election than has Barack Obama -- 21 or 22 debates in the primary.

He's going to have at least three additional debates now in the general. He's offered to have -- he had offered to have even more debates beyond that. So Barack Obama understands the importance of debates and has had more than his share.

WALLACE: Senator Graham, briefly, because I want to move on to something else.

GRAHAM: Well, let's just be real honest. To suggest that John McCain has not tried to have debates for Barack Obama, hasn't been talking about it constantly, is just ridiculous.

Barack Obama said nobody really -- so nobody really thinks Bush or McCain have a real answer for the challenges we face. We have been begging the guy to debate us. He doesn't want to come into a town hall meeting and take questions.

I don't know -- I can't translate Obama-speak. I have no idea what he's saying or what he means. Soaring rhetoric, feel-good persona, ever- changing positions -- the reason we're not in town hall meetings testing these two candidates is because Barack Obama doesn't want to be tested.

That's why we're not having these debates.

DASCHLE: And if you believe that, Chris...

GRAHAM: And to say that it's John's fault...

DASCHLE: That's -- that's crazy.

GRAHAM: ... that John's interjected race, that John doesn't want to debate, that John doesn't understand the Mideast, is absolutely ridiculous. And that's why we're going to win this race.

We're not afraid of our ideas. We're ready to be asked questions by anybody in this country, with him standing right there beside us. Let him give his answers. Look under the hood. Check the tires. But no, he's running out the clock. He's trying to say that John McCain is George Bush, and he won't challenge his own party to solve any of the nation's problems. Have the House and the Senate...

WALLACE: OK. OK.

GRAHAM: ... go back in session.

WALLACE: All right. Let's...

DASCHLE: You know, when you're -- when you're behind...

GRAHAM: Lead.

DASCHLE: ... you make statements...

GRAHAM: Lead.

DASCHLE: ... like that and hope believe will believe.

GRAHAM: Just don't talk. Lead.

WALLACE: OK.

GRAHAM: Get your hands dirty.

WALLACE: We've got a couple of minutes left. I want to cover two last areas. Vice president -- obviously, we're getting down to the short strokes.

Senator Daschle, given his brief time in national politics, does Senator Obama need to pick someone who has more foreign policy experience?

DASCHLE: Chris, from the very beginning, what he has said is that it's judgment, not experience. You look at Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, and that makes the case against experience, in my view.

I think that you've got to take people that have good chemistry, that would make a good president. We're looking for judgment first and foremost. That's the most important issue.

WALLACE: Senator Graham, given all of McCain's talk about Obama's inexperience, can he pick a governor who will have even fewer foreign policy credentials than Obama?

GRAHAM: I think John is well positioned to tell the American people without having to blink or to be confusing that, "I'm ready to be commander in chief."

The big difference in this campaign is John McCain is the best prepared person to be commander in chief since Eisenhower. Senator Obama is the worst prepared person to be commander in chief at a time of war in the history of America. John needs to pick a running mate he feels comfortable with, that could take over if something happened to him. He'll put the country first, above all other considerations on this issue as well as others.

WALLACE: All right. We have about a minute left.

Senator Daschle, I have to ask you about another piece of news. Back in 2001, an envelope containing anthrax was sent to your office. Now the lead suspect in the federal investigation has committed suicide.

Have federal authorities briefed you about this investigation and whether the case is closed?

DASCHLE: Chris, they haven't. And I think the American people deserve more of an accounting on this investigation and some appreciation of how to bring this to closure.

I don't know anything about the most recent development, and that's unfortunate. I think all of us, not only those of us directly affected, but all of us need to know more than we do today.

WALLACE: Do you think, given the fact that this gentleman committed suicide this last week, that there was a federal investigation -- that it's been a reasonable amount of time, or do you think that they should have gotten in touch with you already?

DASCHLE: Well, I think that it's -- I mean, from the very beginning, I've had real concerns about the quality of the investigation, given -- the fact that they already paid somebody else $5 million for the mistakes they must have made gives you some indication of the overall caliber and quality of the investigation.

And I'm hopeful that some day soon we'll have the answers we deserve.

WALLACE: And what's your reaction to what, if only through newspapers and media -- what you have learned so far about this scientist, Bruce Ivins?

DASCHLE: Well, unfortunately, it doesn't bring anything to closure. And we don't know. This probably further complicates their ability to get to the facts.

I don't have any idea how close they were of accusing him, of indicting him. I don't know whether this is just another false track and that -- a real diversion from where they need to be. We don't know, and they aren't telling us.

WALLACE: Senator Daschle, Senator graham, we want to thank you both so much for coming in and talking about a lot of issues with us. Please come back, both of you.

DASCHLE: Thanks, Chris.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

WALLACE: Up next, our Sunday panel weighs in on a combative week on the campaign trail and answers two new questions. Is McCain going too negative? And is Obama tough enough? Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Let me be clear. In no way do I think that John McCain's campaign was being racist. I think they're cynical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: He brought up the issue of race. I responded to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Those were the candidates wrapping up a tough week in the campaign in which they mixed it up over racial politics.

And it's time now for our Sunday group, Fox News contributors Fred Barnes of The Weekly Standard, Mara Liasson of National Public Radio, Bill Kristol, also from The Weekly Standard, and Juan Williams, also from National Public Radio. We could have like -- Ron Burgundy, anchorman -- we could have a street fight here.

(LAUGHTER)

At the end of this eventful week, some Republicans worry that John McCain has gone too negative. Some Democrats worry that Obama hasn't shown he can fight back -- same problem that John Kerry and Michael Dukakis had.

Bill Kristol, how do you score the back and forth this week?

KRISTOL: Oh, I think McCain clearly won the week. I mean, I sort of dislike that whole formulation, which has become so popular with pundits these days -- you know, who won the day, who won the news cycle, who won the week? It's not like baseball where, if you win six games this week, you get six games in the win column. There's only one day that matters, and that's Election Day. And you do have to ask over the long term how does this play out.

But I think McCain exposed a real weakness in Obama, which began with the Berlin speech, which could turn out to be a very important moment in this campaign, where he sort of overplayed his hand.

I mean, do this thought experiment. Obama's trip to the Middle East, Afghanistan and Iraq, and then Jordan and Israel -- what if he'd done that and left from Israel? It would have been a huge success.

What if he'd even gone to Paris, Berlin and London, but just met with world leaders? I think it would have been fine. There wouldn't have been anything to say that was critical.

It was his vanity, really, that led him to want to speak to 200,000 Germans, which then led to the, "Gee, speaking to 200,000 Germans, but he's not visiting our troops, our wounded troops, there," which then led him to come back and being attacked as sort of a celebrity.

He then responded with this dollar bill line. So I do think the Berlin speech will turn out to have been conceivably a pretty bad turning point for Obama.

WALLACE: Juan, let's focus on the fight over racial politics this week. In your opinion, did Obama play the race card? And regardless, was McCain -- was his camp smart to jump all over it?

WILLIAMS: Well, race is, without a doubt, a factor in this campaign. I mean, there are people who tell pollsters that race is the most important factor that will determine their vote. I think it's something like 8 percent of the white voters say that.

And there's a huge swath of undecided voters who are unsure about who Barack Obama is. John McCain's having a hard time defining himself.

But when you say how do you define Barack Obama, if you can define him as the black guy in the race, it's to his detriment. I think Obama is fearful of this.

But the way that he put it -- put it in McCain's mouth by saying, you know, "They're going to say that I don't look like the guys on the dollar bill," and previously having said, "And did I mention he's black," I think it was a huge mistake by Barack Obama, because Barack Obama doesn't want to bring up race in that way.

He wants to be the unifier. He wants to bring people together. He doesn't want to remind them that he's the black guy in the race. So he did play the race card. McCain responded and, I think, responded fairly.

And I must say I'm struck by the idea that so many of the Clinton people have come to McCain's defense and said, "You know what? This is what they did to us." Suddenly, any criticism of Obama becomes a racist attack.

You're distracted by your normal -- from your normal campaign themes because you're fearful of being called a racist.

WALLACE: Mara, it has been a pretty steady drumbeat of negative ads by McCain, though, about whether or not Obama is a celebrity, the Paris Hilton ad, blaming him for gas prices, for not going to the hospital in Germany.

Does McCain -- and this gets to Bill's point about short term, long term. Does McCain risk doing damage to his brand as a kind of nonpartisan, maverick straight-talker?

LIASSON: Yes, but I think -- talking to the McCain people this week, it sounds like they're willing to take whatever hits on their brand they took this week, and they've been taking them every time some charge is shown to be inaccurate, in exchange for the damage they think they're doing to Obama.

I think the damage to McCain is a little bit different. It's not just that he'll be seen as negative, because negative ads work. Otherwise, politicians wouldn't use them. I think it's because the second half of the message is missing from McCain, the positive half.

Where is the Republican reform message? I think just as McCain thinks he's making headway caricaturing Obama as arrogant and out of touch, I think McCain is open because he's left himself open to also being caricatured as kind of cranky and negative and old because he hasn't filled in the other side of the ledger.

BARNES: I think he does need to fill in that side of the ledger. But you have to remember one thing, and that is why what McCain is doing now is important -- you may not agree with it, but in playing on this issue that Obama is a lightweight and he's inexperienced and he's not up to being president.

The president is different -- electing a president is different from electing somebody to any other office in the country. You know, we don't elect, as parliamentary governments do, a party leader. We elect a person.

And people -- and it's so important in the presidency that you -- things matter other than just politics and other than your substantive agenda. It's your character. It's your judgment, as Tom Daschle would say as well about Barack Obama.

Your character, your judgment, your basic honesty, your temperament, your experience -- all those things matter more in the presidency, and we often get presidents elected at a time when politics is running in favor of the opposite party. Eisenhower got elected in a Democratic era. Clinton got elected in a Republican era.

So whether you're playing on that issue, as McCain is doing, saying that Obama is a lightweight, not up to the office, is entirely legitimate in a race for president, because that's -- those characteristics matter so much.

WALLACE: Which brings us to one of the characteristics, Obama's toughness. I talked to a lot of Democratic strategists this week who are shaking their head and saying, "Oh, my gosh, it's John Kerry and swift boats all over again."

Bill Kristol, is Obama tough enough to fight back effectively? And doesn't he have to turn this from "all Obama, all the time," a referendum just on Obama, to a choice between Obama and McCain?

KRISTOL: I think Obama's pretty tough, and his campaign's pretty tough. He weathered some tough attacks in the primary from Hillary Clinton and soldiered on. And they're pretty disciplined.

It was interesting Friday he very much tried to pivot to an economic message. And I think that's what he's got to do. I mean, I've talked to some Democrats this week myself, and what several of them said is, "You know, in a way, the Obama campaign's too highfalutin. It's all about Obama, and he's so special and different, and it's change and hope and all this. What happened to the core Democratic message?"

You know, the economy's crummy. The banks and Wall Street have gotten away with murder. Your house is decreasing in value. You don't -- you're worried that you might lose your health care. The kind of -- it's not a message I particularly agree with, but there is a lot of resonance for that message right now.

I think you'll see Obama sounding much more like a Dick Gephardt, Hillary Clinton Democratic over the next two or three weeks.

WILLIAMS: I think the key is that it has -- he has to make the campaign about you, the voter, and not about him. But I think right now he does feel it's about him, and he does feel that he is being put upon.

And I think that's why he speaks about race in the way he does. I think he fears that he'll get beat up and tarnished and that he won't have the opportunity to speak out.

But I think you're exactly right. Part of the danger for him is getting off message, and the message clearly has to be about the economy, about gas prices.

He's changed his position somewhat on oil drilling this week, but the problem for Obama is how to get his message out clearly, to say exactly what he stands for, as opposed to being simply this empty vessel of change.

WALLACE: All right. We have to step aside for a moment.

But coming up, Congress goes on a five-week recess after doing nothing about high gas prices, and Republicans storm the House and throw their own Boston Tea Party. We'll explain after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: On this day in 1981, air traffic controllers walked off the job, demanding more money. President Reagan ordered the controllers back to work...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN: ... and will be terminated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: ... and ended up firing all those who refused.

Stay tuned for more from our panel and our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNKNOWN): How many of you remember the Boston Tea Party?

(LAUGHTER)

This is the Boston Tea Party.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was congressional Republicans staging a protest on the House floor Friday after the Democratic majority went on recess without voting on energy legislation.

And we're back now with Fred, Mara, Bill and Juan.

Well, it seems to be one of those issues, Fred, where both sides think they have the high ground, Democrats pushing conservation and alternative energy sources, Republicans demanding a vote on offshore drilling. Is one party making a mistake here?

BARNES: Well, I think the Democrats are, and you see their unity cracking now. The Gang of 10 is one example of it, you know, five Democratic senators and five Republican senators coming up with a compromise proposal that would allow offshore drilling actually to begin. So that's one example of it.

You know one thing about politics. I love stunts. You know, sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. Obviously, that one was not quite the Boston Tea Party, but it got -- it got a little attention anyway, and -- because Republicans think they have the upper hand.

I mean, look. Polls are running with them by about 3-1. I think the public wants to begin drilling offshore. They want the moratorium lifted. They want to drill in the Rockies. I think they'd like -- even ANWR is a place where the public, not John McCain or Barack Obama, would like to drill.

And here's where the Democratic -- the Democrats' position is untenable. We can't -- we can't even vote on drilling. I mean, Nancy Pelosi says, "I'm trying to save the planet, and we can't have a vote on drilling and lifting the moratorium at all, and I have the gavel, and I'm not going to give it up," and on and on like that. And that's pretty arrogant. Harry Reid's doing the same thing.

What we're going to get now, Chris, is an argument between the Democrats who want a compromise and the Democrats who just want to follow the extremist environmental position.

WALLACE: Well, let me -- let me ask Mara about that, because you did have Harry Reid, the leader of Democrats in the Senate, Nancy Pelosi, the leader of Democrats in the House, shutting down Congress, going on a five- week recess, not even allowing a vote.

Same day, Friday, Barack Obama says, "Well, you know, maybe I would accept offshore drilling as part of a comprehensive plan," so what's going on there?

LIASSON: No, I think that in this -- in this whole area of the economy and energy, offshore drilling is the one bright spot for Republicans. This is the one area.

You know, generically, Democrats have like a 20-point advantage on the economy, but not on drilling. It's really popular. If it wasn't, you wouldn't see Barack Obama changing that way.

He said, you know, "I'm personally against it, but to get a compromise I'd be happy to, you know, look at something like that," a package of things that both sides would want. That's what the Gang of 10 in the Senate is about.

I think Obama stuck his big toe in the water with that statement, and you might see even a little bit more movement. But he has said he is open to it. This is what the country wants.

And apparently, in states like the mountain west, especially Colorado, that is one of the reasons why the kind of state battleground state polls have closed recently because of that issue.

WALLACE: You know, we've talked about the Gang of 10 as shorthand, and let's explain. That's a bipartisan group of five Democratic senators, five Republican senators. On Friday they came up with a plan.

Bill, it includes more drilling. It also includes getting 85 percent of all U.S. vehicles off petroleum products within 20 years. Whether it's that, which sounds pretty dramatic, or something less, what are the chances for a comprehensive deal this fall? Or would both sides rather have the issue to go into November?

KRISTOL: I don't know what the chances are. But I think the Democrats -- the Democratic leadership in Congress is in a tough position preventing a vote. I mean, if you think about politics, there are substantive issues -- should we drill or not? -- and there are process issues. Why aren't the Democrats allowing a vote?

Political issues often become really salient. They have a real political impact when substance and process comes together.

In other words, if the issue was just drilling, we could have a public policy debate about energy. If the issue was just some arcane congressional procedural matter, no one would pay attention.

But it's a very effective talking point for Republicans to say, "We need to drill more and at least give us a vote. What are they scared of?" I think they can just hammer this over the recess.

I think a lot of Democratic House members in swing districts are going to be nervous about it. We've seen Obama move now to a qualified endorsement of drilling.

And I do think -- much to my surprise, I've got to say this issue of drilling, now compounded by the Democratic congressional leadership's refusal to allow a vote is a pretty good issue for Republicans.

WALLACE: What do you think, Juan? Are the -- well, first of all, how does it play politically? And do you think that there's a real possibility of a deal in the fall? Or do you think both sides would rather have their issue?

WILLIAMS: No, I think there's a chance of a deal because, as was mentioned earlier, the big surprise is the numbers are running in the polls so strongly in favor of drilling.

I mean, the chant coming from the Democrats still is that these oil companies should be drilling on lands that they have leases on, and that there are millions of acres that they're -- simply abandoned, that they haven't taken advantage of, in addition to which, that even if you were to get oil on the American shore, in the Gulf of Mexico, off the coast of Georgia and Carolinas, Virginia, it wouldn't impact gas prices for 30-plus years.

But these arguments, which make sense, because, I mean, oil is fungible -- it's all over the world -- just impact different markets -- don't seem to be impacting the American voter at the moment. Americans, in a moment of anxiety, are saying, "Drill, drill, drill."

So the Democrats are having to respond. It's become a Republican issue. It's why Obama is shifting. It's why the Democrats are willing to make a deal, as long as you repeal some of the tax breaks for these oil companies. But I think the Democrats...

WALLACE: Well, wait a minute, the Democrats weren't willing to make a deal. They wouldn't allow a vote.

WILLIAMS: No, it's the reason for the -- for the 10, the Gang of 10, including five Democrats, willing to propose this and now trying -- I think you will get something in September, because the Democrats just want to get it off the table. It's become a Republican issue.

BARNES: I mean, look. Juan's wrong. About 30 years? I never heard that before. Thirty years to get some of the exploration and then the drilling done?

The truth is in the Gulf of Mexico you can do it in a few years because there's a lot of infrastructure there already and you move into a new part of the Gulf. It's near (inaudible) there. Off the Atlantic and the Pacific, way offshore, it would take a little longer.

ANWR is another place where you could do it in -- certainly, in less than 10 years. In the Rockies with oil shale, who knows? But it would have an instant impact on price just with the market knowing that all this oil that isn't available now is going to be available. It would have a tremendous impact.

WILLIAMS: The president could open the oil supply, if that was the case.

BARNES: Well, that -- yeah, but that wouldn't have a great -- even by the Democratic proposal...

WALLACE: All right. All right. We've got to make time for...

BARNES: ... that wouldn't affect price much at all.

WALLACE: ... because finally, last week, one member of our august group here around the panel had a very specific prediction to make about the choice of one of the vice presidential running mates. Let's go back and review that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTOL: Next Monday, August 4th, 11:00 a.m. in Richmond, Obama and Tim Kaine, and that will be a -- it will be an attractive, young ticket.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now, Mr. Kristol, I have here before me Barack Obama's schedule for Monday, August 4th. At 11:00 a.m., it says he's going to be in Lansing, Michigan, and then from there he's going on directly to Boston. Is this still part -- more of the subterfuge?

KRISTOL: Don't believe everything you read, Chris. Well, I mean, I hope they felt honestly they couldn't do -- once I said it, you know, they had to change -- they changed the plan. They changed the plan a little bit.

But I still think the pick will be this week, and I still think it'll be either Tim Kaine or Evan Bayh, and I still think it will be Governor Kaine.

WILLIAMS: Oh, you mean even though he's going to Michigan, it won't be Granholm, who was born in Canada?

KRISTOL: See, there are these airplanes -- yeah, right. There are airplanes. You can stop off at other places. His schedule this week is very light, as you know.

WALLACE: But you think it's going to be this week.

KRISTOL: I still think it will be this week before the...

LIASSON: He's going on vacation. And if he wants to leave the field open with nobody, not even a vice presidential candidate, slugging away, that would be really something.

WALLACE: And in the few seconds remaining, Mr. Kristol, where are we on the -- Governor Sarah Palin as the vice presidential nominee for the Republican Party?

KRISTOL: There's more and more interest in her. That's what I hear.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

KRISTOL: She was great on T.V. this week in an interview.

WILLIAMS: I was in -- I was in Alaska...

KRISTOL: Really?

WILLIAMS: ... last week, and let me just tell you, she's got her own scandals. She's not running for vice president.

WALLACE: All right. We have to leave it there. He's either going to be really right or really wrong. See you all next week.

Up next, our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: It's not unusual for celebrities to come to Washington to push their latest cause.

But as we first reported last year, it is unusual when a star seems more committed to doing good around the world than doing well in Hollywood. Here's our Power Player of the Week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JUDD: Those of us who are in the arts have a certain amount of capital that we can spend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDD: How did he know he could do such a thing to us?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Ashley Judd may be a movie star, but she says what she calls service work is now more important than her career in Hollywood.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDD: So where would you go when you needed to find food for your mom?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: She spends three months a year working on YouthAIDS, traveling so far to 12 countries in Asia, Africa and Central America to fight the spread of the disease.

How do you handle your two very different lives, making movies on the one hand, and going to the ends of the earth to save people's lives?

JUDD: I just do first things first. I do what's in front of me. I remember simple slogans like "easy does it."

WALLACE: Last year Judd spent three weeks in India trying to educate people at risk for HIV/AIDS. Her trip was the subject of a National Geographic documentary called "India's Hidden Plague."

JUDD: Over 3 million people are infected, a million of them are children. Lots of children are being orphaned.

WALLACE: How near is India to a tipping point in whether you control the disease or it just spreads out of control?

JUDD: India is very much at the tipping point. And we have all the potential in the world to avert a crisis such as the one sub- Saharan Africa is still enduring. And how dare we not?

WALLACE: That sense of outrage was stoked when Judd visited 14- year- old Neela (ph), who works all day to raise her two younger siblings after both parents died of HIV/AIDS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDD: Oh, my goodness, beautiful girls.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JUDD: In addition to bearing this unbearable load of being a mere child, yet having the responsibility of feeding her extended family, she's just in a state of grief. She's an orphan.

WALLACE: YouthAIDS aids markets its message like a company selling a product, using pop culture...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEYONCE KNOWLES: AIDS -- know your choices.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: ... in this case, puppet shows and games, to reach its target audience.

When you go to these countries where HIV/AIDS is spreading in some cases like an epidemic, what's your message to young people?

JUDD: The A, the B and the C. Abstinence, being faithful to one partner, partner reduction, delay of sexual debut, correct and consistent condom use, both the male and the female condom.

WALLACE: Judd says it was Bono who got her into service work. They were both in Washington recently raising money for YouthAIDS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDD: I have had a chance to hear the stories of the vulnerable, the...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Judd has been YouthAIDS' global ambassador for six years, and she intends to keep at it as long as she can give the world's most vulnerable tools to help themselves.

JUDD: From being disempowered to empowered, wow. That's really exciting, and at YouthAIDS that's what we do best, and we do it cheaply and effectively.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: This fall Ashley Judd will travel to Vietnam and Laos to continue her work for YouthAIDS.

And that's it for today. Have a great week, and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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