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August 24, 2008

Guests: Gov. Kaine and Robert Gibbs

Fox News Sunday

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace, reporting from the Democratic National Convention in Denver, Colorado, and this is "Fox News Sunday."

It's the Democrats' moment to tell America where they would take the country as Barack Obama becomes his party's nominee. Can he redraw the electoral map with his politics of change? We'll ask the governors of two battleground states, Tim Kaine of Virginia and Bill Ritter of Colorado.

Then, Obama picks a running mate. We'll get an insider's view of what his choice means for the fall campaign from Obama senior adviser Robert Gibbs.

Also, Bill and Hillary Clinton are supporting players here, but just how supportive will they be? We'll ask our Sunday regulars -- Brit Hume, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams.

And our Power Player of the Week coaches Obama and all the speakers for their moment in the spotlight, all right now on "Fox News Sunday."

And hello again this Sunday from the Fox News sky box high above the Pepsi Center in Denver.

Well, after a primary battle that lasted more than a year and then a mystery over the running mate that stretched on almost three months, the Democrats finally have their ticket, Senators Barack Obama and Joe Biden.

Obama unveiled the new team Saturday in the same spot where he launched his campaign in February of '07. Fox News correspondent Major Garrett is standing by in Chicago to explain how Obama made his choice and why he thinks it will help him get elected.

Major?

GARRETT: Well, good morning, Chris. Obama advisers describe Joe Biden as a solid and serious pick, one who instantly rallies key Democratic constituencies and immediately addresses persistent polling questions uncovered in the last three or four weeks about whether Barack Obama has the experience enough to handle serious matters on the world stage. And they feel he's a very solid pick.

While he's a solid pick, Joe Biden is clearly not a perfect fit for Barack Obama. On the biggest question that Obama -- the nation has had to deal with in the post-Cold War era, the Iraq war, Barack Obama was against it. Joe Biden voted for that authorization. And while the surge debate was going on, Barack Obama criticized Joe Biden's plan to have a loose ethnic confederation in Iraq of three different separate ethnic groups and both questioned the surge and Joe Biden's idea about that loose confederation of three ethnic groups have now been overtaken by the surge.

And if you have a campaign that's built around the message of change, bringing someone who's been in Washington to (sic) 1973 in -- onto your ticket doesn't exactly fit.

Nevertheless, Joe Biden is a political scrapper. He knows how to land a punch. He landed a couple yesterday in Springfield. But he also knows to land those punches, he has to appear and sound authentic. And on that level, he tried to score a hit as well. Let's take a quick listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOSEPH R. BIDEN JR., D-DEL.: You know, ladies and gentlemen, it is not a mere political saying. I say with every fiber of my being I believe we cannot as a nation stand four more years of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GARRETT: And the nation's going to hear a lot more of that as Joe Biden not only pushes the message of change but also criticizes all the Republican economic policies.

And as he said, as a scrappy kid, an Irish Catholic kid from Scranton, Pennsylvania, he knows what it's like to live a middle-class life -- very important toward the Obama message, which is moving toward economics more and more, but they also know that Biden brings that foreign policy heft.

But I hope the country got a good look at this ticket yesterday, Chris, because they won't see them again until after the Democratic convention. The Obama-Biden ticket is defying modern Democratic tradition by not campaigning together before they get to the convention. They'll do that in battleground states afterward.

Chris?

WALLACE: Major Garrett, reporting live from Chicago.

Major, thank you.

Of course, the question now is how the choice of Joe Biden will play across the country. Joining us are the governors of two key swing states, Tim Kaine of Virginia, who looked for a while like he was going to be the running mate, and our host here in Colorado, Governor Bill Ritter.

And, governors, welcome to "Fox News Sunday."

KAINE: Great to be with you, Chris.

RITTER: Thanks, Chris.

WALLACE: Governor Kaine, we'll get to your near-miss in a moment, but first let's talk Virginia -- 13 electoral votes, hasn't gone for a Democrat since Lyndon Johnson in 1964. But the polls right now say Virginia is dead even. What, if anything, can Joe Biden do for you in Virginia?

KAINE: Well, first, Joe comes from a state, Delaware, that borders Virginia. The eastern shore part of Virginia and Delaware are not only bordering but very, very similar. And I think there's a lot in common, and Joe understands that.

Virginia's a very military state, so one in 10 Virginians are veterans. We've got active duty, Reservists, Guardsmen and -women, military families. Joe's long track record on foreign relations matters, strong support for the military, but strong support for America being great at the diplomacy area, will go over very well in Virginia.

And I think he's a heart guy. I mean, as he campaigns, he's a great retail campaigner who really connects with people on a visceral level, and Virginians like that. And so I think the pick of Joe Biden will do very well in Virginia.

WALLACE: Governor Ritter, same question. Colorado has nine electoral votes. It hasn't gone for a Democratic candidate for president since Bill Clinton in 1992, also dead even this year. Can, and how can, Joe Biden help you win -- or Obama win Colorado?

RITTER: I think Obama and Biden together can absolutely help us win Colorado. The west has changed. Since 1992, it's changed a great deal. Just the last six years, if you think about Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas, Arizona, Oklahoma, New Mexico -- all Democratic governors. They all succeeded Republicans.

The independents in the west are really looking for leadership. They are independents, but they'll vote for the person if the message is the right message.

And we think we have previewed sort of this -- the change that Obama speaks of. We've previewed it in the west and have a broader message to the country about how that change can be effected for people.

WALLACE: But, Governor Kaine, as Major Garrett mentioned, Obama is running as a change agent that is going to -- who's going to shake things up in Washington.

On the other hand, you've got as a running mate somebody who has been on Capitol Hill, in the Senate, 36 years, literally more than half his life. Doesn't that damage or blunt the message of change?

KAINE: Well, you know, if you look at what Joe's done as a senator, he's done some things that I think will resonate well with Virginians and others. He wrote and really helped push through the Violence Against Women Act back in the 1990s, which he says was really his proudest legislative accomplishment, and that was a great step forward, recognizing an important public safety issue in bringing out of the shadows the need to -- tough prosecution against those who victimize women with crimes of violence.

And whether you look at that, or whether you look at his work on the Judiciary Committee, or Foreign Relations, he's got a solid record of accomplishment.

And I think they're a good -- they're a good team personality- wise. They complement each other well. I think you're going to see them really enjoying being out on the trail together.

And in Virginia, look, we just want -- we just want a better partner in Washington. And I think with Joe and Barack, we're going to see -- have a lot of excitement about getting that better partner.

WALLACE: But, Governor Ritter, isn't it also, to be honest, a recognition of what we see in the polls, that voters have continuing doubts about Obama, especially on national security foreign policy issues? Does he have the experience to be president?

RITTER: I think it was a smart choice because Joe Biden does have the experience to, number one, be president. He could be president on day one, and secondly, really, because he has this national security and, really, foreign relations background.

We're in a challenging time, Chris. Everybody knows that. It's good to have a vice president that can complement the president, fill the ticket out and say, "We can rise to the challenge."

WALLACE: But, Governor Kaine, can Biden, at number two, make up for perceived weaknesses at the top of the ticket? And as you answer that, I also want you to take a look at what Biden has said about Obama, because he has sometimes not been too complimentary.

Let's put this up. "I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. It's awful hard, with only a little bit of experience, to have a clear sense of what you would do on the most critical issues facing us today. It's not something that lends itself to on-the-job training."

Governor Kaine, not ready, little bit of experience, on-the-job training -- the attack ad writes itself.

KAINE: They can run any attack ad they want, but here's the issue. Americans...

WALLACE: But that's Biden saying that about his running mate.

KAINE: Yes, sure. They can run any attack ad they want. But here's the issue. Americans want a change in the direction of this nation, and especially the economy has come into the fore. Bill's talked a little bit about Joe Biden's national security credential. But, look. Joe is a guy who grew up in a working-class household in Scranton, really understands what it is to have to scrap. Barack is a guy who comes from no means and no connections, mother on food stamps when he was a kid.

They both understand the experience that Americans are going through now with rising energy costs, you know, deficit, job losses, food costs going up. This week we saw a sharp distinction as the -- these two candidates understand the plight of normal Americans, and John McCain can't remember how many houses he owns.

I think that's going to create a pretty sharp difference between these two candidates.

WALLACE: But, Governor Kaine, respectfully, you haven't answered my question, which is if voters -- and the polls indicate it -- have concerns about Obama's weakness on national security and experience to be commander in chief, can Biden as the vice president solve his weaknesses, the person at the top of the ticket?

KAINE: Yes.

WALLACE: How come? How?

KAINE: Well, I'm just using a Joe Biden line. As you remember, you know, I'm going to answer a question with a "yes."

Look, Joe's got a great track record, and Barack's got a record of being right on the critical issues. I mean, we've got judgment. We've got experience. We fuse them together in one ticket.

But then we have two guys who really understand what we need to do to get this economy going again, which is absolutely critical to the next -- you know, to the 80 days between now and election. Americans want to hear the economic plans.

WALLACE: Governor Kaine, when did you find out that Obama was not going to pick you as...

KAINE: You know, I'm not going to talk about my conversations with the campaign about this. I will say, Chris, it was really flattering to be mentioned. It always seemed like kind of a longshot to me, but it was really, really nice to be mentioned.

WALLACE: Now, it has been reported that he called you personally on Thursday. Is that true?

KAINE: I'm just going to leave it at that. But again, it was a -- I really think it was a good choice. I think Joe Biden, with the state of the race and the state of the world, was a great choice for Senator Obama.

And Joe and I -- we had a good visit yesterday. I'm really anxious to do all I can to help the ticket.

WALLACE: Honestly, are you disappointed? KAINE: Well, you know, I told you, my wife said after I found out, "Remember, you've been elected to the highest office in the land. You're my husband." And so, you know, that was good. That put it in perspective.

(LAUGHTER)

So I know who hail to the chief is, too.

WALLACE: Yes, exactly.

Let's turn to another subject, Governor Ritter. There was a remarkable poll in the Wall Street Journal this week. It found that of those people who voted for Hillary Clinton during the primaries, only 52 percent favor Obama. Twenty-one percent support McCain. twenty-seven percent are undecided.

We now learn that Senator Clinton was never interviewed about being a running mate. She was never consulted about the choice. Don't her supporters here at the convention who are still angry, and a lot of them are -- don't they have a right to be even angrier?

RITTER: Well, I think that's going to be the role of the convention, is to really be a unifying time for the ticket.

If you think about the allowance of putting Hillary Clinton's name into play, have her name placed on the floor, that's really a concession in many respects, but it's an acknowledgment of her historic campaign. And I think it will have a unifying effect.

These are polls looking at, you know, these issues. And at the end of the day after this convention, I think we walk out of here a united ticket, which Governor Kaine alluded to before. People want more than anything that we have change in this country.

WALLACE: But, Governor Kaine, Obama and Clinton have been -- you know, the primary battle has been over now for almost three months. They've been campaigning together or separately about their common stand on issues for a long time.

And yet there are, as we see in the polls, a lot of Clinton supporters who are still upset, still bitter. Do you think those people who are still so upset are going to be won over or bought off by the fact that her name is placed in nomination here on the floor, if she gets a roll call?

KAINE: You know what? I think they're going to be won over not by that but they're going to be won over by the Clintons' appearance this week and what they say.

I just have a feeling this week's going to be very good, and both Senator Clinton and President Clinton are going to say, "Let's do all we can to make change in this nation."

Senator Clinton's done a great job since that first weekend in June of campaigning in different states that are really important to Senator Obama. And, look, my anecdotal evidence, Chris, is, just hanging around with the Virginians who are strong Hillary Clinton supporters, they're getting on board.

You know, I was visiting the hotel restaurant last night, you know, having soft drinks with them, and you know, they're getting on board. And I think people are very, very excited about this week and coming together to win this fall.

WALLACE: Was she disrespected in not even being interviewed to be a running mate?

KAINE: I don't -- no, I couldn't say that. Look, this is such a personal choice. However the -- however the Obama campaign kind of determines that they need to run the process, who they need to look at, it's got to be something that is just that fit that only the candidate can know.

So, yeah, nobody who's not picked is disrespected. You know, it's fine. And Joe Biden's a good pick, and it's going to be a great ticket.

WALLACE: Finally, this -- and let me start with you on this, Governor Ritter, but I want to get both of you to give me a relatively brief answer.

This looks to be a strong Democratic year. You've got an unpopular president, an unpopular war, an economy that's struggling, and yet Obama in horse races against McCain runs 10 points at least behind the generic horse-race poll, "Would you like a Democrat or a Republican in the White House?"

If you could give Senator Obama, Governor, one piece of advice, how he needs to connect with voters and frame the choice for voters at the convention and in the next couple of months, what would it be?

RITTER: Just to keep hammering this notion of change, but change around developing a different energy future, developing a different energy future that's about creating jobs so that we have the leading energy economy in the world going forward in the 21st century.

I think it's the most important thing, really, to people in the west and, I suspect, to people in the country as well over time.

WALLACE: Are you troubled by the fact that he seems to have waffled on drilling?

RITTER: Well, I don't know, because his energy policy, if you look at the entire energy policy, fits perfectly with the things we've been able to do here in the west and in Colorado that have been successful. So no, I'm not.

WALLACE: Governor Kaine, if you could give Obama one piece of advice, how to connect with voters, how to frame the election, what would it be?

KAINE: Chris, you know what I would say to him is don't let the August doubters get you off a plan that's been working.

You know, I was national co-chair of the campaign since February of '07. I remember a year ago, the summer, month after month after month, the polls with him and Senator Clinton had him 20 or 30 points down.

They didn't vary from the plan they had, which was methodically and persistently go out and explain to this nation why we need change and what the important issues were -- the economy, energy policy, better judgment in foreign policy. Don't get off what's got you here.

He's run a great campaign. He's ahead in the polls. We don't need to feel defensive about that. We always knew it would be close. We always knew it would be close. He's trying to do something that, you know, hadn't been done before.

But with this pick yesterday and with a great unity event here in Denver, I think we're going to come out of here with great passion, and I think we'll get there.

WALLACE: Governor Kaine, Governor Ritter, I want to thank you both so much for joining us today, talking with us in what is a very busy period of time.

And as the host, Governor Ritter, congratulations.

RITTER: Thank you.

WALLACE: This setup here is outstanding.

RITTER: It's pretty remarkable. Thank you.

WALLACE: It really is.

KAINE: Thank you, Chris.

WALLACE: Up next, we'll talk to a top adviser to Obama to take us behind the scenes and explain how the senator made his running mate choice and what they hope to get out of the next four days here in Denver. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: And we're back, high above the convention floor here at the Pepsi Center in Denver, Colorado.

Joining us now to give us an insider's look at how Joe Biden was chosen as one of Joe Obama's top advisers, Robert Gibbs.

And, Mr. Gibbs, welcome to "Fox News Sunday."

GIBBS: Thank you for having me, Chris.

WALLACE: Take us behind the scenes. How did Barack Obama make this choice?

GIBBS: Well, look. I think this choice says a lot about the judgment of Senator Obama. He went through a very methodical, pragmatic process. He listened to a lot of people. He talked to each of these candidates several times and came to what I think was a very good choice.

He picked somebody who has unparalleled expertise on foreign policy, somebody who will help him rebuild the economy, put people back to work, make our country independent of energy.

But I think, you know, Senator Joe Biden's personal story has been tested many, many times by personal crises. He's somebody that works in Washington but doesn't live there, and I think that says a lot about him -- doesn't forget where he's from. I think it says a lot about who he picked.

We're comfortable with our pick. We had a lot of great choices and we talked to a lot of different people. But I think we settled on a great pick and a great partnership to bring about change in this country.

WALLACE: I'm going to ask a question, and while I do, you can work on your earpiece and try and get it in.

GIBBS: Yes, thank you.

WALLACE: I want to show you a recent poll, and it found that on the question, "Who offers hope for the future," Obama beats McCain 54 percent to 19 percent. But on the question, "Who would be a better commander in chief," McCain beats Obama 53 percent to 25 percent. In that sense, was part of the calculation voters have a concern about Obama's experience, about the -- the amount of time he has, and is he ready to be commander in chief, and Joe Biden helps you in that area?

GIBBS: Well, look. I think -- I think Senator Biden, again, has unparalleled foreign policy experience. And I think if you look at not just what was said yesterday by Democrats about this pick, but look what was said by Republicans.

Senator Dick Lugar of Indiana, the chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Chuck Hagel, an unparalleled expert on defense policy, Senator Arlen Specter, another Republican, this time from Pennsylvania all spoke very highly of the choice of Joe Biden.

Look, I think what you have together is two people that have the judgment to lead this country, the judgment and the experience. And I think it will make a big difference in the fall. We're very happy with our pick. We think -- again, unparalleled foreign policy experience.

WALLACE: But what about change? Joe Biden has actually been in the halls of Congress 10 years longer than John McCain has. So this whole message about change, we're going to shake up the way things are done in Washington -- doesn't that go out the window?

GIBBS: No, because again, as I said to you earlier, Joe Biden works in Washington but he doesn't live there. He goes -- every night, he goes home on an Amtrak train, where he knows the names of the conductors, to his wife and family in Delaware.

I think he's somebody who never has forgotten where he's from. He was born in Scranton, Pennsylvania. He's never forgot that middle- class background. You know, he's -- and, Chris, he knows how many houses he owns. So I think he's a down-to-earth kind of guy.

I think he -- again, I think you've got a ticket that says a lot about change in this country because both of these candidates understand, and they've understood for a long time, we can't have four more years of the same George Bush, John McCain policies that have led this country into the direction that we're in now.

WALLACE: All right. I've got another long question, so...

GIBBS: Maybe when I try the other ear...

WALLACE: We have the soap opera of the earplug.

As we discussed with the governors, Biden has a long string of statements that have been critical of Obama, and I want to go through some of those with you.

After Obama voted against funding for our forces in Iraq, Biden said, "I wasn't prepared to play chicken with the lives of American troops." When Biden (sic) said he would attack Al Qaida in Pakistan if the government there didn't, Biden said, "It's a very naive way of thinking how you're going to conduct foreign policy."

And I want you to take a look at this next piece of sound where Biden seems to echo McCain, that sometimes Obama puts his own political gain over national security. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: Lives are at stake, and I knew the right political vote. But I tell you what, some things are worth losing elections over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Mr. Gibbs, your running mate is on the record repeatedly questioning Obama's experience and his judgment.

GIBBS: Look, I think what -- if you look -- obviously, you can pull up a lot of quotes from August when these two guys were running against each other.

But what -- I think what you have -- and if you look at the statements just recently, Joe Biden says John McCain has the judgment -- I'm sorry, that Barack Obama has the judgment, the intellect and the spine of steel to lead this country in a different direction.

There's no question about that. I think what you have is unparalleled experience now, a call for change. And look, the person that's behind the times on Iraq right now is one person in this country, it's John McCain, because the government in Iraq, quite frankly, the government in the United States, the Bush White House, and Senator Obama, have all talked about this idea that we have to responsibly withdraw our troops from Iraq, to redeploy some of those troops to Afghanistan, the central front on the war on terror.

Everybody's agreed to that except John McCain, who -- the only person that I know of that thinks we should leave our troops there indefinitely.

WALLACE: But Joe Biden at one point wanted to break the country into three separate parts. I mean, the Iraqis hated that idea. And clearly, that hasn't worked. And at the time, Obama said that was a bad idea.

GIBBS: Well, you know, we've tried a lot of different strategies. But I think these two candidates -- these two candidates know one thing, that we cannot continue on the same path in this country economically, in our foreign policy, whether it's in Iraq, where our military is overstretched and we're spending $10 billion to $12 billion a month, even as the Iraqis have a surplus.

We can't do more of the same in Afghanistan, where the Taliban in the hills between Pakistan and Afghanistan are flourishing. We can't do more of the same.

We can't do more of the same in terms of jobs and our economy. That's why I think what you have now is a ticket that's going to bring about change in this country, and it's change versus more of the same. It's a very simple concept.

WALLACE: The other issue, and let's be honest about it, is Joe Biden talks too much. He was known during the John Roberts Supreme Court hearing for asking what many believe to be the single longest question in the history of the Senate.

Has Obama or has someone on your staff talked to Joe about keeping it quiet?

GIBBS: Look, I think -- I think if you ask Joe Biden, on occasion he's asked long questions. I think he'd probably plead guilty to that.

WALLACE: I can tell you as a Sunday show host, he also gives long answers.

GIBBS: Well, I think that may be something that a lot of them are guilty of. But look, I think, Chris -- look, we didn't hire him for his stunning good looks. We hired him for his judgment to lead this country if something happens to Barack Obama, and the judgment and the advice that he'll give the next president of the United States, and we think we've got a fabulous pick.

We've got somebody who hasn't forgotten where they're from and somebody who can help rebuild this country.

WALLACE: Mr. Gibbs, why wasn't Hillary Clinton ever interviewed about being the running mate?

GIBBS: Well, look, I'm not going to get into the process of how these -- how these guys were picked. We're fortunate to have the support of Hillary Clinton. She's worked with both of these candidates in the United States Senate, and she's picked the one candidate...

WALLACE: But when she gets 18 million votes, she doesn't at least deserve an interview?

GIBBS: No, no, look, again, I'm not going to get into the process. Senator Obama had a great conversation with Senator Clinton this week as well as former president Bill Clinton. Everybody's on board.

And it's going to drive the media crazy when we come out of this convention united. That's what this pick is. We're going to have united convention. Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, everybody that ran for this office is going to be united to bring...

WALLACE: Well, you talk about that, but the McCain campaign has put out a new ad trying to pour more gasoline, more fuel, on the fire of the Clintons, and let's take a look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: She won millions of votes but isn't on his ticket. Why? For speaking the truth. H. CLINTON: Senator Obama's campaign has become increasingly negative.

NARRATOR: The truth hurt, and Obama didn't like it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Why shouldn't Clinton supporters be angry?

GIBBS: Look, I think Clinton supporters are united in the thing that unites all of the people in this convention. We need change. We can't have more of the same.

I think it's a better question that's directed to the McCain campaign. They know that that ad is demonstrably false. They know that Hillary Clinton is supporting Barack Obama.

WALLACE: Well, wait a minute. She didn't get an interview. She didn't get consulted on the pick. She had 18 million supporters. A lot of them are still mad. You've got this Wall Street Journal poll that shows only 52 percent now support Obama. I don't have to tell you the party is not united.

GIBBS: Well, let's be honest, Chris. The Washington Post and ABC came out with a poll today that shows more than -- that shows 70 percent of Hillary Clinton voters supporting Barack Obama, the highest watermark since she suspended her campaign in June.

There's no question that people have -- people had strong feelings about their nominee. We had a race that was unparalleled, virtually, in this party. We went from beginning to end.

We have the strongest party. We have the most enthusiastic voters. Look, I think -- I think the process that went on was a fair process that came up with as good a pick and the best pick that we could possibly get.

I'm interested in seeing how John McCain conducts this process. And I think it's going to be illuminating about the type of leader he's going to be.

You know, we spent a lot of this last week hearing the McCain campaign float the notion of a pro-choice vice presidential candidate, despite the fact that John McCain is going to accept the nomination and a platform that he supports and doesn't support abortion even in the cases of rape and incest.

Now, if you're going to go on T.V. and call yourself the original maverick, but when you turn on that radio in the afternoon and Rush Limbaugh says, "John McCain, you're not going to pick a pro-choice vice president," it's going to be very illuminating to see whether we're going to get John McCain -- the John McCain you see on T.V. or the John McCain that listens to Rush Limbaugh and gets right back in line with the right.

And I think it's going to be an illuminating pick, because you're either going to see the John McCain that he plays on T.V. or the John McCain that he plays in this election.

WALLACE: Finally -- and this, your last answer, plays right into it - - Obama and the campaign have gone sharply negative against McCain. I want to show you a clip from last year and then one of your ads from last week. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I have come to represent in the minds of some turning a new page and getting beyond the slash-and-burn, very tactical politics that we've become accustomed to in Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Call it country club economics. How many houses does he own? John McCain says he can't even remember anymore. Well, it's seven. No wonder McCain just said the fundamentals of our economy are strong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Mr. Gibbs, isn't Obama now practicing the kind of slash-and- burn tactical politics that he used to condemn?

GIBBS: Absolutely not. I think it's a legitimate issue, Chris, when you...

WALLACE: So he's running for president, to talk about how many houses John McCain has?

GIBBS: Well, somebody's got to talk about how many houses John McCain has, because he either forgot how many he has, misplaced the keys to those houses, or he just wasn't being truthful with those reporters.

That answer illuminates whether or not you're in touch with that family in Youngstown, Ohio or Scranton that's struggling to make that mortgage payment just this month. And I think you're out of touch if you have seven houses and don't even remember it or can't even admit it.

WALLACE: Mr. Gibbs, we want to thank you for sharing a very busy Sunday with us. We'll see you around the convention hall the next few days.

GIBBS: Thank you, sir. Nice to be with you.

WALLACE: Thanks for coming on.

Coming up, Barack and Joe -- how will the new Democratic ticket play here in Denver and across the country? Our Sunday regulars are waiting in the wings with some answers when we come right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Joe Biden is that rare mix. For decades he's brought change to Washington, but Washington hasn't changed him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: You can't change America when you know your first four years as president will look exactly like the last eight years of George Bush's presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was the new Democratic ticket, Senators Barack Obama and Joe Biden, at their unveiling yesterday at the Old State House in Springfield, Illinois.

And after all of our vacations, our team is back together -- Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News, and Fox News contributors Mara Liasson of National Public Radio, Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard, and Juan Williams, also from National Public Radio.

And welcome, everyone, to Denver.

So, Joe Biden -- Brit, what do you think of the choice?

HUME: Well, it passes the test of a plausible commander in chief. We can imagine Joe Biden as president -- so in that sense, a solid choice.

Other two issues, it seems to me, for a vice presidential selection are -- one is what does it do to unite the party and unite the convention. And there, I think the answer may be a little different.

I don't think Joe Biden's selection does much to assuage the outrage that a lot of Hillary backers feel. Whether that will translate into some disaffection that lasts till election day among Hillary voters I think is very much an open question. I rather doubt that it will. But in the near term, I don't think Biden helps on that score. Now, maybe all the goody good things they've scheduled for Senator Clinton and former President Clinton at the convention will take care of that. We'll wait -- we'll have to wait and see.

And the final thing is does Biden bring anything in terms of out -- reaching out to voters beyond those that Obama might otherwise attract. On foreign policy, perhaps so, but on all the other range of issues he is virtually every bit as liberal as Obama is.

This ticket, therefore, offers not very much to centrists and conservatives, and this is, after all, I think, still a center-right country.

WALLACE: Let me just pick up on that with you, Mara, because I think the Obama campaign would say he's Catholic, he has blue-collar roots, he's the scrappy kid from Scranton...

LIASSON: Scrappy kid from Scranton.

WALLACE: ... you know, and that that -- and in that way -- and I don't know, but I guess the question is do you think he can reach out to some of those working-class white voters who supported in Ohio and Pennsylvania -- supported Clinton?

LIASSON: I think that in the end people vote for a president, not a vice president. But yes, you can send Joe Biden to Scranton, which has now become kind of ground zero for the white working-class voters that Obama hasn't been able to get back into his fold, the ones who voted for Hillary Clinton.

And as far as what Brit said about uniting the convention, I think no choice other than Hillary herself would have made those disgruntled Hillary people happy here.

But I do think it's a safe pick. It's a reassuring pick. He picked reassurance over reinforcement. He didn't go for a change agent. I guess he figures he's got that down all by himself.

But I think we're learning a lot more about Barack Obama. He's pragmatic. He doesn't want to take a big risk. And clearly, over time, he felt that the foreign policy credentials which he's weak on needed to be shored up, and I think that is the biggest thing that Biden does.

And also, he is someone who can perform well on the very few occasions when the vice presidential pick matters, which is, obviously, in the announcement, in his speech at the convention, and in the debates, and I think he will be a very tough debater.

WALLACE: But, Bill, let me ask you -- and Mara brought up, it seems to me, two central points -- does he help -- does he really help people who are concerned about Obama's foreign policy lack of experience? Will he shore that up and ease their concerns about that?

And on the flip side, change -- does this blunt the message of change and shaking up Washington to have a guy who is a six-term, if he doesn't win the vice presidency, about to be a seven-term U.S. senator?

KRISTOL: Well, it was a pick made from weakness. Now, that's not necessarily a foolish thing. If you've got weaknesses, you want to try to correct them.

But it is a pick that, in effect, acknowledges, "I was being wounded on the commander in chief, lack of foreign policy experience issue, and I picked the most experienced Democratic senator in foreign policy."

But he's picked someone with no military experience and no executive experience. He didn't pick Hillary Clinton, who got 18 million votes in the 2008 Democratic primary campaign. Joe Biden got, I think, 2,000 Iowans who were willing to caucus for him and then dropped out. When he ran in 1988, Biden didn't even make it to Iowa, as I recall.

So I'm dubious about the pick. I would have -- I think -- and I think we should save the tape of your interview with Tom Kaine just 15 minutes ago, because I think if I were...

HUME: Tim Kaine.

KRISTOL: Tim Kaine. Tom Kaine is the former governor of New Jersey. Tim Kaine is my own governor. Oh, my God, I'm going to have to make it up to him now for the next several months.

WALLACE: Oh, you have in the last couple of months.

KRISTOL: I've been very pro-Tim Kaine, but I'm telling you, I believe if Barack Obama was watching that interview, he thought, "You know what? Tim Kaine could have handled the foreign policy issues adequately in the debate with McCain's vice presidential nominee."

And he's given up an articulate younger spokesman with executive experience who would represent change to take a long-time serving senator with a lot of experience.

But incidentally, what is that experience? He was against the Reagan defense build-up, against the first Gulf War, for the Iraq war. This is the experience that Tim -- that Barack Obama -- that's the change Barack Obama wants us to believe in?

WALLACE: Well, and let me complicate the picture even further, Juan, because, as we mentioned earlier, Biden has a long record of questioning Obama's judgment.

Biden opposed Obama when he voted to cut off funding. He opposed him flat out on the idea of meeting with foreign leaders like Ahmadinejad. And when Obama said that he was willing to attack Al Qaida in Pakistan if Pakistan wasn't, Biden called that naive.

Now, is that the kind of thing that just goes away after a few days, or does that have some staying power?

WILLIAMS: I think it will have staying power in terms of John McCain's ads, and McCain's already up on the air with ads that highlight the fact that Biden was questioning whether or not you can have a Democrat elected who is not strong on foreign policy.

WALLACE: On-the-job training.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, so that's where it will exist. But I don't think it's going to make much of a difference in the minds of the voters.

I think for the voters, this was a very strong, good pick. Joe Biden is a guy who knows how Washington works. He's been around Washington forever, been in the Senate since he was age 29. So Washington knows Joe Biden. People associate Joe Biden with Washington.

Senate Judiciary Committee, foreign affairs -- this seems to me, in terms of the American people, to be a very solid pick. Personally, I think that the knockout punch would have been if Senator Obama had picked Hillary Clinton. But he didn't.

So OK, if he can't get along with Hillary because of personalities or worries about Bill, this was the best possible pick, much better than I think the options which would have been Kaine or Bayh, and maybe Governor Sebelius of Kansas. All of those were, you know, afterthoughts, boring.

You know what? Joe Biden is not boring. Joe Biden is a guy that can go off any minute. And I think people like that. They like a fight.

WALLACE: Well, what about that, because, you know, his strength is his weakness, Brit?

HUME: Chris, let me tell you something about Senator Biden that relates to an article I wrote about him a number of years ago for The New Republic.

And Michael Kinsley, who was then the editor of The New Republic, put a line above the masthead on the cover of the magazine to highlight the article which said "Shut Up, Senator Biden," and the article focused at some length about how extraordinarily loquacious Senator Biden is, and somewhat undisciplined about that.

And in the course of it, I quoted from a conversation I had with him on the phone in which I was trying to get him to sit for an interview, and he complained that I as an ABC News correspondent in those days covering the Senate had never really covered him. It's true.

He always went on so long. You couldn't cut a sound bite. And he asked me why that was. And I said, and it was quoted in the article, "Senator, I think you're a windbag."

Now, that's kind of funny, perhaps, on its own right, but I want to tell you something about that. A couple years later, it may have been during one of the judicial confirmation hearings, Biden senior on judiciary, very active, he and I were talking about whatever was going on.

And then afterwards, he stopped me for a moment and he said, "You know, you wrote some critical things about me in the past," but he said, "You know what? You were right."

Now, look, I say that not to highlight the question of whether I was right or not, but it says something about Senator Biden. This is a genuinely nice man, a very decent guy.

Now, he will play the attack dog. I don't know how well he'll be able to play it, but he will play the attack dog for this ticket. But this is a nice man.

WILLIAMS: Did he call you a clean, decent white guy?

WALLACE: All right. All right. I have one more question I want to ask Bill Kristol.

And you've got less than a minute. Does the choice of Biden at all affect McCain in his choice of a running mate?

KRISTOL: Yes. I think there's nervousness in the McCain camp about putting Tim Pawlenty, the governor of Minnesota, who's otherwise a very attractive pick, up against Biden in a debate, with Biden's ability to toss around all the places he's been.

He's been to Iraq seven times. Governor Pawlenty is a governor and he doesn't have a lot of foreign policy experience.

WALLACE: In other words, what McCain wants to do to Obama he's worried that Biden could do to Pawlenty.

KRISTOL: Right.

WALLACE: So if Pawlenty is weakened by this, who is strengthened?

KRISTOL: Anyone with extensive experience, which I would say is Romney, to some degree. He ran for president and is a serious grown- up guy, or Tom Ridge or Joe Lieberman.

WALLACE: All right. We have to take a break here, but yes, they're pro-choice, and a lot of people aren't going to like that.

When we come back, we'll chew over the other big story of the Democratic convention which we touched on just now, the continuing saga of the Clintons and their unhappy supporters.

Back from the Fox sky box in Denver right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: On this day in 1964, the Democratic National Convention convened in Atlantic City, New Jersey. Lyndon B. Johnson would go on to accept his party's nomination for president and win the general election. Stay tuned for more from our panel and our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

H. CLINTON: I need a president to work with and so do you. We need a Democratic president back in the White House to get the job done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Hillary Clinton this week urging her supporters to give her a president she can work with. Some might suggest that's an interesting way of putting it.

And we're back now with Brit, Mara, Bill and Juan.

Well, Brit, apparently, from all the reporting, Hillary Clinton was never seriously considered by Obama or his team as a running mate, never consulted about it. Was that a mistake? And could he possibly pay a price among Clinton supporters here in Denver?

HUME: Well, that's the big question, Chris, about this convention. The conventions are now -- in this age are all carefully scripted shows designed to make the candidates look the best.

The only wildcard in the deck here is Hillary and what her people will do and how they will behave. And you know, they've done everything they can to schedule a lengthy speech by her, and all that, and one by her husband as well, and that should go some distance.

But the treatment of Hillary Clinton in terms of the vice presidency, it seems to me, is a lingering wound that will not heal soon. And the short-term question is what effect will it have on the convention.

The longer term question, of course, is whether there are a lot of Hillary voters who will either not vote or, in smaller number, vote for John McCain. And we don't know the answer to that, but that's the question.

WALLACE: Mara, what do you expect not only for the Clintons but also from -- in their prime time speeches, but also from their supporters when you get her name placed in nomination and then you get the roll call vote?

LIASSON: In terms of her supporters, look, there are a lot of die- hards, and they're not going to be happy with Obama no matter what.

And you know, the (inaudible) structure of the convention is set up so that there's not going to be too many egregious displays of "Nobama" signs. You know, they're going to -- they're going to be down there on the floor.

I think that Hillary will vote herself for Obama and explain that she's casting her ballot for Obama. I think she will not let the roll call go to all 50 states. You know, she wants a catharsis.

WALLACE: So in other words, right around West Virginia.

LIASSON: I don't know which state she'll call it off. But look, her task is to make everybody think that she did everything in her power, full- throated, absolutely sincere, completely for him.

Now, if in her heart of hearts she hopes he loses, she certainly can't be seen to have, you know, tried to make that happen. That's crucial to her political future. If she wants to run again, she can't be seen as having undermined him. And believe me, people are on the watch for any sign, imagined or real, of that from her and her husband.

I think the other question is what about her supporters, her voters. The Wall Street Journal poll this week had 52 percent of her voters voting for him. Twenty-one percent said they'd vote for John McCain. Clearly...

WALLACE: And 27 percent either for somebody else or undecided.

LIASSON: Right. So clearly, he's got a lot of work to do, and she's going to work her heart out for him. But in terms of her -- them angry about her not being vetted, she said to the Obama campaign, "If I'm not going to be chosen, I don't want to go through the vetting process," and so she didn't.

KRISTOL: Look, Senator Obama is going to be the nominee. There's no point contesting that roll call. What I would encourage Hillary Clinton supporters to do is to express their outrage over the pick of Senator Biden over the better qualified Senator Clinton as the vice presidential pick by putting her in nomination for the vice presidency.

That would be a good roll call vote, don't you think, Clinton and Biden? Although I'm not sure she wouldn't beat him, and that would be exciting, and it would be a -- it would be a favor to Senator Obama, because the truth is Obama-Clinton is a much stronger ticket -- it is a stronger ticket than Obama-Biden.

Does anyone seriously doubt that Hillary Clinton would bring all the Clinton voters over, whereas Biden I think is going to have a tough time doing so?

WILLIAMS: It would be drama. But I think that you make that suggestion as a subversive act on behalf of the...

KRISTOL: You think? No.

WILLIAMS: But look, I want to tell you something. With the Clintons here, the whole focus of what the Clintons are trying to do is talk about George W. Bush, try to talk about Bush and say, "You know what? Bush has been a problem," and he has not done well in terms of inheriting the good - - the surplus that was left him by Bill Clinton, the good international foreign relations, all of that.

They're going to make the case against George W. Bush less so than endorsing Barack Obama. And that's the concern on the part of the Barack Obama campaign, talking to people with the campaign yesterday.

They want to hear more from Bill Clinton, who is not really talking to them, and they're just trusting, as Mara said, that Hillary Clinton has decided that her political future -- if Barack Obama loses now, that she is positioning herself for the '12 election by saying, "I did what I could. I acted decently. And therefore, please allow me to run and truly, you know, claim this for the Democrats."

WALLACE: Brit, let's step back and talk about the overall convention. What does Obama and his team -- what do they have to do over the next four days? What's the biggest single goal they have to accomplish?

HUME: Well, he needs to reintroduce himself to the voters in a way that rekindles the early fire that he had. He looked like he was going to be a runaway nominee. He wasn't.

After he was nominated, we all thought that he would break out to an eight-, 10-, 12-point lead because of all the political gravity in the country that so favors the Democrats this time around. He hasn't done that either.

He'll have another crack at it here, and that's what he needs to do. We all think he has the potential to do it, or at least we have thought that. So far he hasn't.

His European trip didn't do it, either. In fact, that may have hurt. I have a doubt as to whether having chosen the venue of a football stadium as something sufficiently grand to accommodate...

WALLACE: With 75,000 adoring supporters.

HUME: Right -- to accommodate his oratory is the greatest idea I've ever seen. It may seem to some voters a little presumptuous, but we'll see. But that's the challenge, in the end.

WALLACE: Mara, what does he have to do?

LIASSON: I think he has to reassure people. Conventions are the only moments where candidates get to control every single second. And he has to show that he is a mainstream American.

It's going to start with Michelle Obama talking about her life, her very, you know, inspiring kind of American middle-class life.

He has to take these wonderful four days of the spotlight to disabuse Americans of the notion that he is somehow exotic, strange, risky, not ready to be president.

WALLACE: Let me, Bill, flip on the other side, because it seems to me there's another goal here. Change before seemed to be change for change's sake -- let's change the way business is done in Washington -- more about process than substance.

You see a kind of pivot in the last couple of weeks, and certainly with Biden's speech yesterday, to a much more conventional, no pun intended, traditional Democratic message of economics.

KRISTOL: Right, which I think makes a certain amount of sense. It's going to be a Democratic year. If you can make it a Democratic- Republican race, Obama wins. If Obama is a generic Democrat, he wins. His problems are that people aren't certain he's experienced enough to be president. So I think the temptation will be to do endless Bush-McCain -- I think by the end of these four -- next four or five days, we will think that the last eight years was the Bush-McCain administration, not the Bush-Cheney administration, and that the next four years would be a McCain-Bush administration.

They'll be tempted to do that. They'll do a lot of it. I think it doesn't answer the fundamental problem, which is doubts about Obama.

And meanwhile, I predict that Senator McCain today is calling Hillary Clinton to -- they're very friendly -- to commiserate with her, you know, about the injustice.

WALLACE: He's whipping this horse...

KRISTOL: No, and don't you think, incidentally -- I was thinking, "What woman could McCain put on the ticket to really appeal to the Clinton voters?" What about Hillary? I think McCain-Hillary is...

WILLIAMS: Get Lieberman.

WALLACE: All right. Juan, the economic message -- because clearly, he's had a problem here connecting with middle-class and working-class voters and saying, "My idea of change is somehow going to change and better your life."

How does he get that message across at this convention?

WILLIAMS: Well, he's got to start with his story, and I think Biden is part of that, the stuff we were talking about in terms of the scrappy kid from Scranton whose dad knew hard economic times.

Yesterday when he was in Springfield, Illinois he talked about being at the kitchen table. He joked about the fact that McCain owns these several houses, can't even keep count of them.

But you know, the heart and soul of it as we kick off this convention, Chris, is that the Democrats are anxious and nervous. To pick up on what Brit was saying, they think that he should have a bigger lead at this point, he should have extended it by now, and that he hasn't been able to.

And here we go back to what happened at the end of the primaries. He hasn't been able to close the deal. He didn't close the deal in states like Pennsylvania, Texas, Ohio against Hillary Clinton. Why isn't he closing the deal now? That's the kind of gossip you're hearing in private conversations.

WALLACE: And, Brit, we have about 30 seconds left. Speaking about this question of a lead, does Obama get any kind of a bounce out of this convention, or with the Republicans' just three, four days later, next -- the week after next, are voters basically going to suspend their judgment and wait to see both messages? HUME: Well, we don't know, and we have no way of knowing, because they've never been back-to-back in quite this way. And it may be that the whole Obama bounce will sort of spill over onto the early days of the Republican convention and nullify the start of that, or it may work out the other way. No way to tell.

WALLACE: All right. Thank you, panel. See you around the hall over the next week. Stay out of trouble here in Denver.

And next Sunday, we reconvene at the Republican convention in Minnesota.

Up next, our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: As you see, we've moved from the sky box down here to the convention floor.

Every person who speaks up on that stage will have rehearsed several times at a podium behind the scenes. They'll be put through their paces by a master of the art of convention speeches, and he is our Power Player of the Week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEEHAN: Looking out at 18,000 people, about 50 cameras, reporters, lights and sound, it can literally overwhelm you.

WALLACE: Michael Sheehan is the media coach for the Democratic convention, which means for the next week he and his staff will prep every speaker who goes on stage.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

B. CLINTON: I'm honored to be here tonight.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: He showed us some of the tricks he teaches them, such as playing to both the 15,000 people in the hall and the two or three people watching at home.

SHEEHAN: If you're screaming in the hall, which it's easy to do because of all those people and all that noise there, it looks like you're screaming in people's living rooms, which doesn't play so well.

WALLACE: He put me behind the practice podium in his office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEEHAN: Don't do the death grip, because if you do the death grip, first of all, you look hunched and you can't turn to the audience.

WALLACE: So right off the bat I've messed up. SHEEHAN: Exactly.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WALLACE: Four years ago, Barack Obama was a rookie, speaking in a big hall and reading off a Teleprompter for the first time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: And I stand here today grateful for the diversity of my heritage...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But Thursday night he'll be in a football stadium, talking to more than 75,000 people.

Is it tough to tell a great speaker, a Bill Clinton, a Barack Obama, in your role, "I think you could do that differently?"

SHEEHAN: The best speakers are the easiest ones to work with because they understand the nuance.

WALLACE: Growing up in New York, Sheehan was interested in drama but had a problem -- he stuttered.

SHEEHAN: I would adopt a fake voice, so if this is my normal speaking voice, "Thank you and good afternoon, and today's debate --" so I would change my voice a little, and I found I wouldn't stutter.

WALLACE: He ended up on Capitol Hill producing Shakespeare where he got to know congressional staffers.

SHEEHAN: Suddenly I got these calls from friends that I had met, "My boss has to give a speech next week. He's not really good at this. You must know something about this. You do Shakespeare."

WALLACE: Which is how Sheehan has ended up the media coach at every Democratic convention since 1988.

Would it be fair to say that you are coaching these politicians on how to perform?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY: I'm John Kerry, and I'm reporting for duty."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHEEHAN: I can't deny that that's part of it. But there's a difference between performing and acting. Performing is how can I deliver this speech effectively to 50,000 people.

WALLACE: Sheehan makes his living coaching corporate bosses for interviews and speeches.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHEEHAN: I'm doing three in one day?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But it's clear that politics is his true passion.

SHEEHAN: I'll sneak out and I'll walk out on stage and see 17,000 people, about 50 cameras, and the person on stage. It's emotional. It's, "Gosh, there's history being made here, and I'm going to have a little smudge of a fingerprint on it someplace."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: Michael Sheehan says one special challenge this time is he won't get his hands on Joe Biden until he arrives here in Denver tomorrow. But he says you rehearse until it's time for the speech, and then you send the politician out to give it.

And that's it for today. Stay tuned to Fox News Channel all this week for coverage of the Democratic National Convention. Then next Sunday we'll be reporting from St. Paul, site of the Republican convention. Our exclusive guest then, the Republican nominee, John McCain.

Have a great week and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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