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May 04, 2008

Howard Dean on "Fox News Sunday"

Fox News Sunday

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace and this is "Fox News Sunday."

Obama or Clinton? It's still the big question for Democrats, with the party's election prospects in the balance. How does the divided party come together for the fall campaign? We'll ask Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, in a "Fox News Sunday" exclusive.

Then we'll sit down with two former party chairs, Terry McAuliffe, head of the Clinton campaign, and Joe Andrew, a superdelegate who just switched from Clinton to Obama.

Plus, breaking news. The mainstream media wonders why Democrats suddenly like Fox News. We'll discuss it with our Sunday regulars -- Brit Hume, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams.

And our Power Player of the Week -- the most famous woman in corporate America gets on the campaign box, all now on "Fox News Sunday."

And hello again from Fox News in Washington. Well, with the next crucial primaries at hand for Democrats and a narrow Obama win in the Guam caucus yesterday, here's where we stand in the fight for the Democratic nomination.

Barack Obama leads in delegates by 135. He needs 283 more to secure the nomination. And in the popular vote, excluding Florida and Michigan, he's still ahead of Hillary Clinton by more than 500,000.

Joining us now to discuss the long, tight race is Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic Party.

Governor, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

DEAN: Chris, thanks for having me on.

WALLACE: The Democratic National Committee is now running an ad that attacks John McCain's position on the war in Iraq. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years.

MCCAIN: Maybe 100. That would be fine with me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Governor, why are you distorting what McCain actually said?

DEAN: Well, I'm not. I actually have what he actually said. And if the Republican National Committee would like to pay for the whole six minutes, I'd be happy to do it.

I've said publicly that John McCain said that he wants to keep our troops in Iraq for up to 100 years. He himself said that some of that could be occupation like South Korea or Germany.

But the fact of the matter is, first, that anybody who thinks that we can keep our troops in Iraq for 100 years without them being victimized by roadside bombs, suicide bombers and militias I think is wrong and needs their judgment -- to look carefully at their judgment.

And secondly, Americans don't want our troops in Iraq for 100 years, no matter what they're doing over there. We can't afford that. We need the money here at home for our jobs.

WALLACE: Well, Governor, let's take a look -- and it's not going to take six minutes. Let's take a look at what John McCain actually said that day in New Hampshire. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: Maybe 100. We've been in South Korea -- we've been in Japan for 60 years. We've been in South Korea for 50 years or so. That would be fine with me, as long as Americans are not being injured, or harmed, or wounded or killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Governor, you not only left out the part, as you said, where he talked about Americans keeping the peace very much as we have for a half century in Japan and North Korea, you also took the part where he said that would be fine with me, but then you clipped out the very next words he said, which were, "as long as Americans aren't being hurt or killed."

The non-partisan group FactCheck.org said, "What the DNC ad conveys is the opposite of what McCain said."

DEAN: I don't think that's so, Chris. What John McCain said is his plan is -- to deal with Iraq is to stay there maybe for 100 years, whether it's an occupational force or whatever the force is.

Americans do not want our troops there for 100 years. Look. We have huge deficits. Iraq is partly responsible for that. We're not investing in health care. We're not investing in our roads. We've got unemployment rising. We need to bring our troops out of Iraq.

John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.

WALLACE: But you don't think there's anything... DEAN: He has no plan -- he has no plan to bring our troops home.

WALLACE: Listen, I think there's plenty...

DEAN: Our guys do have a plan to bring our troops home.

WALLACE: ... plenty to disagree with on John McCain's plan in Iraq. I'm saying when he says, "That would be fine with me," -- that's what you put in, and then you clip out the next words, which are, "as long as Americans aren't getting hurt."

And an independent group says you've completely distorted what he said. You've got no problems with that?

DEAN: Our problem is that John McCain is distorting -- is distorting what he said. The fact of the matter is he began and ended his clip by saying he's willing to stay in Iraq for 100 years.

That is not what the American people want under any circumstances, whether it's like South Korea, or whether it's like Germany or whether it's continuing for 100 years to be sniped at by Shia militia and so forth.

WALLACE: Governor, let's take...

DEAN: We don't belong in Iraq. We shouldn't have gone there, and we don't belong there.

WALLACE: Governor, let's take a look at another of your ads, this time hitting what McCain has to say about the economy. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: I think you could argue that Americans overall are better off because we have had a pretty good, prosperous time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But, Governor, you edited out what John McCain said in the very next sentence. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: But let's have some straight talk. Things are tough right now. Americans are uncertain of this housing crisis. Americans are uncertain about the economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: When there are such real big differences between the two parties this year, and there certainly are, why misrepresent what McCain is saying?

DEAN: And, Chris, if you had gone on to play that thing that you just played, you would have seen him say again at the end, "but Americans are better off than they were," and they are not.

Gas prices have gone from $1.10 a gallon in December of 2001 to about $3.50 now. The average American income was $49,000 in 2001. In 2006 it was $48,000. That is unprecedented. Never have we had a president who come in where the average American income dropped $1,000 in the first six years of their term.

And what McCain is offering is four more years of George Bush. He wants to extend the Bush tax cuts. Of course, he was opposed to that two years ago.

He wants to give a tax holiday on gas. It's fine and good. And then he wants to pay for it by increasing taxes or increasing what he called user fees, which he said was a tax increase himself when he was debating that with Mitt Romney.

He has no economic plan. He has no plan for getting us out of Iraq. And I don't think our ads misrepresent anything.

WALLACE: Let's turn, if we can -- I just want to follow up for one second, without getting into his whole record. When you have him saying that things are better, and in the very next sentence he says that, you know, I understand things are tough with the housing crisis and the economy, that's not a misrepresentation?

DEAN: And then he concludes by saying, "but things are better." They're not better. Americans know it and John McCain is simply out of touch.

WALLACE: All right. Let's turn to the Democratic campaign. There's growing concern in your party that this long, bitter fight is actually hurting the party's chances in November.

Former party chair and superdelegate Joe Andrew wrote this week, "It is clear that a vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to continue this process, and a vote to continue this process is a vote that assists John McCain."

And a poll of Democratic voters found by a margin of 51 percent to 35 percent, they now think it's bad that you don't have a nominee. Governor, are they all wrong?

DEAN: I would like to have a nominee soon, but there are also some very good things going on. Thirty-five million people have voted. We have all those folks in our voter file.

Hundreds of thousands of Republicans have left their party and come to vote in our primary. We have all those people in our voter file.

I didn't intend this when we started the 50-state strategy, but we're essentially conducting vigorous primaries in all 50 states and in our territories, and that's going to matter in the fall.

We have never had an election season like this, I think, in the last 40 years where the last state made just as big a difference as the first state did. So there are some good things going on.

Yeah, it's tough on the party. It's why I think that the unpledged delegates need to say who they're for by the end of June so we'll know who our nominee is by the end of June.

But there is also enormous merit to everybody in America getting a chance to vote for these candidates in the primaries.

WALLACE: But let's talk about some of the damage that's been caused by this long, bitter fight, Governor. In races around the country, Republican state parties are now running ads linking Barack Obama to local candidates, and it got so bad in Mississippi that one of your Democrats there had to disavow Obama. Let's watch the charge and countercharge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NARRATOR: Obama's pastor cursed America, blaming us for 9/11. Childers said nothing. When Obama ridiculed rural folks for clinging to guns and religion, Childers said nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRAVIS CHILDERS: This campaign has been one for the books. My family has heard the lies and attacks linking me to politicians I don't know and have never even met.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Governor, has the Reverend Wright controversy made Obama radioactive among Democratic candidates down ticket?

DEAN: First of all, I'm not going to get into the Reverend Wright at all. I think we've spent enough time on Reverend Wright.

The fact of the matter is what people are really interested in is the war, the economy and health care. And that is what the battle is. And the frank truth is that John McCain is out of step on the war, the economy and health care.

Look, the Republicans have run this...

WALLACE: But, Governor, I'll give you plenty of chance to go after McCain, and that's fair, but I'm asking you a specific question here, which is when you've got -- and it's not just there; it was in Louisiana, it was in North Carolina, it's been in Mississippi -- where they're linking Obama and Wright to their local candidates.

And in this one case in Mississippi, you had a local candidate saying, "Obama? Never heard of the guy." I mean, it indicates that he's a problem or a drag, at least in the minds of some local Democratic candidates.

DEAN: Chris, the Republicans -- for the last 30 years, the Republican book is to race bait and to use hate and divisiveness. In 2006, the American people said no to that, and I think they're going to say no to that in 2008.

It is true that the economy, the war and health care are more important to the American people. They are tired of the divisiveness of what the Republicans have done to them, and that's why the Republicans are in trouble, deep trouble.

WALLACE: Governor, are you suggesting...

DEAN: Eight more years of George Bush is not what we need.

WALLACE: Governor, are you suggesting that bringing up Jeremiah Wright is race baiting, and hate and divisive?

DEAN: Yeah, I am suggesting that kind of stuff. I think when you start bringing up candidates that have nothing to do with the issue -- when you start bringing up things that have nothing to do with the candidate and nothing to do with the issues, that's race baiting, and that's exactly what it is, just like Willie Horton was race baiting so many years ago.

I think we're going to take a -- we're going to turn the page on this stuff. I tell you, you know, there's a lot of difference between the Republicans and the Democrats on issues, but the biggest issue of all is we don't use this kind of stuff. We never have used this kind of stuff, and we're not going to start now.

America is more important than the Republican Party, and that's the lesson that the voters are about to teach the Republicans.

WALLACE: But, Governor, I've got to tell you, when I interviewed Barack Obama last week, he said he thought that the Reverend Wright issue was a legitimate political issue -- his words.

DEAN: Well, he can say whatever he wants. I'm going to say whatever I want. I'm not getting into Reverend Wright. He's caused enough trouble for our country over the last several weeks.

What I am going to say is that I think America -- the American people want a united country. For the first time in 30 years, they want us to stop hating each other. They want us to work together. And I think that's what the issue is. That's what our message is going to be.

And we're not going to get into all this stuff about divisive figures. We're just not going to do it.

WALLACE: Governor -- and not to say that we've been counting, but it has been almost 19 months since you've appeared here or on any Fox program. How do you explain the fact that in less than a week -- and we're very happy to have you -- that Governor Dean and Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have all shown up on Fox?

DEAN: Well, first of all, your audience is important to us. A lot of your audience are working-class Democrats, the kind of people who will vote either way, and we'd like them to vote Democrat.

And second of all, you gave us a fair opportunity to talk about Senator McCain's record. The truth is that if ordinary people in this country knew what Senator McCain believed about the economy and about Iraq, they wouldn't support him.

And that's one of the reasons the Republicans have put such a big fuss up about our ads, is because those ads really move independent voters.

Senator McCain is an honorable person. He served this country with great honor during the war. But Senator McCain is not the right person to lead America into the future.

WALLACE: Governor, again, I'm going to bring you back.

DEAN: And when people see these...

WALLACE: We'll give you plenty of time to bash McCain.

DEAN: Sure.

WALLACE: The left wing of your party is in a snit over all these Democrats appearing on Fox. In fact, the head of MoveOn.org had this to say about Democrats on Fox, "It legitimizes a right-wing network that is going to use that credibility to smear them, " the Democrats, "in the general election."

He and the head of the Daily Kos are using words about you guys showing up here as weak, idiotic, stupid. How do you respond to the left wing?

DEAN: What I'd say is this. We stayed off Fox for a long time because your news department is, in fact, biased. But, Chris, you haven't been. We've always been -- you've always been tough but I always thought fair, and I still think that's true.

And we need to communicate with people who are going to vote in the Democratic Party. Hundreds of thousands of Republicans have turned their back on their own party to vote in the Democratic primaries in the last six months.

We owe it to our -- to all the American people to reach out to those folks. This is not about Fox News. That's not why I'm here today. I'm out because I want to talk to your viewers directly about why this election is important and what we can offer the American people.

WALLACE: And let me ask you -- and obviously, it's always about the millions of people who watch these shows -- looking back, do you think it was a mistake for the Democratic Party to boycott Fox debates and all the other programs during the last year, and thereby boycott getting your message out to the millions of people who watch?

DEAN: No, I think it was the right thing to do, because there are some things in the news department that have really been shockingly biased, and I think that's wrong. And I'll just say so right up front.

But it is important also for us not -- we shouldn't punish the viewers of Fox by staying away. Now the viewers have had an opportunity to look at the debates on other channels. Now they're going to have an opportunity viewing on this channel, and I think that's fair.

WALLACE: Governor Dean, we're always happy to have you on Fox. Thank you for talking with us, and please come back, sir.

DEAN: Chris, thanks for having me on.

WALLACE: Up next, two former Democratic Party chairmen, one who's head of the Clinton campaign and the other who just jump ship to Obama. It should be quite a face-off, right after this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: We continue our discussion of the Democratic race now with two former party chairs on opposite sides of the fight.

Terry McAuliffe, who's chairman of the Clinton campaign, joins us from Kentucky; and from Indiana, superdelegate Joe Andrew, who a couple of days ago switched from Clinton to Obama.

Well, gentlemen, first I'd like to get your reaction to what you just heard Howard Dean say, that Republicans making an issue of Reverend Wright is race baiting and using hate.

Mr. McAuliffe, you buy that?

MCAULIFFE: Well, listen. I think there's no place in it for these Republicans to be running these ads with Reverend Wright in it.

I think on the Democratic side, they want to hear about the issues of job creation, health care, how we're going to get our troops out of Iraq fast and safe. And I think that message is what people are concerned about.

I'm here in Kentucky. We have West Virginia, Indiana, North Carolina coming up. It's all about jobs. It's about gas prices. So the folks I'm talking to are not focused on that at all. They're focused on kitchen table issues.

And that's why Hillary Clinton has continued to move ahead and have the momentum.

WALLACE: Mr. Andrew, when I interviewed Senator Obama last week, he said he thought it was a legitimate political issue. Do you think that it's race baiting to mention Reverend Wright?

ANDREW: Hey, look. I think Howard Dean is not only doing a great job, but he's exactly right on this issue as well. What has been so moving, I think, for people across Indiana -- as you said, I'm down in Evansville right now where the excitement is just unbelievably electric -- is how Senator Obama has reacted to these criticisms that have come from Jeremiah Wright.

That reaction -- the way he's denounced them, the way he stood up and said exactly what he's all about -- I think has brought a lot of people over to his cause. He's been tested here, and he's obviously done very well in that test. I think that's why there's so much energy both in the south of Indiana where I am and in the north where I was yesterday.

WALLACE: Well, let me, gentlemen, examine this from a different perspective. We see, as I mentioned with Governor Dean, Republicans now running ads trying to link local candidates to Obama and to Reverend Wright.

It didn't work yesterday in Louisiana, where a Democrat who was the target of some of those ads won a special election for Congress.

But, Mr. McAuliffe, when you see this pattern, is Obama, either because of Reverend Wright or other reasons -- is he now becoming a drag on other Democrats down ticket?

MCAULIFFE: Absolutely not. We have had -- I've said this for a while now. We have two spectacular candidates running for the Democratic nomination. This race is essentially even.

When you count all the votes, Hillary has gotten more votes in the popular vote. More people have voted for Hillary than any candidate ever in the history of the Democratic side. I feel very comfortable about where we are going forward in the remaining contests that we have.

As you know, we have very important two states coming up, Indiana, North Carolina. I know that the Obama campaign has said that they would win Indiana by seven points. They were 20 points up in North Carolina. All the most recent polls show it very, very tight.

Folks really are focused on the economic issues. Who is it that's going to deal with the job creation issue? Who is going to deal with the debt foreclosures and the mortgage crisis that we have in this country? Hillary Clinton.

If you look at the polling data on the issue of jobs and economy, strong ahead of everybody else. Who has the best chance of beating John McCain? She now beats Senator McCain 50-41.

WALLACE: Well, I want to -- let me pick up on that, Mr. McAuliffe, because I think you both agree that perhaps the single biggest issue for the superdelegates who haven't declared is which candidate is going to run a stronger race against John McCain this fall and has a better chance of bringing the White House back to Democrats.

Let's take a look at some numbers. In Ohio, the RealClearPolitics average of recent polls shows Clinton beating McCain by almost six points, while McCain leads Obama by more than three. In Florida, Clinton now leads McCain by two points, almost two points, while McCain beats Obama by nine.

Mr. Andrew, if you look at those numbers, isn't Clinton right now the stronger Democrat to go up against McCain?

ANDREW: Look, the fact is that the polls have been up and down. They will be up and down, Chris, a dozen times between now and the general election.

Where there's been competition, Barack Obama's gotten more votes. He's won more states. He has more delegates. The reason Republicans are going after him is because they sense that he's close to being the presumptive nominee here, because the math is so tough for Hillary Clinton.

That's why there's energy, that's why there's excitement around the campaign here in Indiana and all over North Carolina, because people feel how close this is. And people across...

WALLACE: But how do you -- let me bring Mr. McAuliffe in.

How do you argue with those polls that at least at this point show in two very important states, Florida and Ohio, Clinton beats McCain and McCain beats Obama, Mr. McAuliffe?

MCAULIFFE: Chris, I think you hit it right on the head. When we finish this up on June 3rd, at that point the superdelegates have got to make the decision who is it that can best beat John McCain, because this is what this is about, winning the election on November 4th.

Hillary in the last week has moved ahead in every single poll against John McCain. Senator Obama has either tied or, even on Fox, is behind Senator McCain. Hillary is ahead on every poll.

More importantly, she now has a huge lead with independents in the general election. I think that's very important. The demographics for us are all turning our way. If we win Florida, we win Ohio, we win the White House.

Hillary has won Michigan, Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania. She's won those states by 10 points, and I think that's very important, added to Texas, California, New York, New Jersey, Michigan.

WALLACE: Let me bring -- Mr. Andrew, how do you respond specifically to that issue?

ANDREW: Well, first off, look, winning the Democratic primary, obviously, in all these tough states has only limited information about whether or not you'd win in the general election.

There are a half a dozen polls that have showed very different statistics, Chris, than the one that you're showing here. We've got polls all over the place.

And the reason is because, Terry and I agree, this is a close, tough race. It's close, obviously, in the primary. It's going to be, unfortunately, close in the general election because of all the dynamics here as well.

What you see in Indiana is that same enthusiasm and energy that you saw weeks ago for Barack Obama. And I think a lot of it has to do because people over and over again see Barack Obama stand up with these very principled positions, things that are not, you know, politically expedient. The people in Indiana remember there's more than 100 Hoosiers that have died in the Iraq war, and he voted no on that war. We lived through a gas tax holiday here in Indiana and saw that the big oil companies didn't pass that on at all.

So this McCain-Clinton gas tax is perceived as pandering here in Indiana...

WALLACE: Mr. Andrew, let me ask...

ANDREW: ... where Barack Obama, having this $1,000 middle-class tax cut, is exactly what people want, and people are now positively responding to it. This is turning toward Barack Obama.

WALLACE: Mr. Andrew, let me ask you about political expedience and political tactics.

When you switched, announced your switch, this week from Clinton to Obama, you said the following in a letter you wrote, talking about the Clinton campaign, "They are the best practitioners of the old politics, so they will no doubt call me a traitor, an opportunist and a hypocrite."

Mr. Andrew, have they tried to smear you?

ANDREW: Well, the fact of the matter is that there are thousands of e-mails, thousands of telephone calls, fortunately, most of them that are positive. And there's a lot of people who like to think of themselves as surrogates for these campaigns that may well not be.

Look, I've been questioned whether I'm a Hoosier. I've been questioned whether I'm an American simply for trying to state my opinion as well.

I'm a great admirer of Hillary Clinton. I'm a great admirer of Terry McAuliffe, who I think has run a great campaign for her as well. As Terry said, this is not a question between good or bad or right and wrong. We've got two goods here, two rights.

They have differences on the issues, differences how they approach these things. And that's what we're talking about. But in the end of the day, Democrats are going to rally around a Democrat, and a Democrat is going to beat John McCain in the fall.

WALLACE: Mr. McAuliffe, Joe Andrew is just the latest member of the, quote, Clinton team to jump ship. And let me show you some of the others who have.

MCAULIFFE: Sure.

WALLACE: Members of the Clinton cabinet like Bill Richardson, Bill Daley, Norm Mineta, Federico Pena, Robert Reich, and a number of other people who worked closely with the Clintons and know them awfully well have jumped ship from Clinton to Obama, or just supported Obama from the start.

Why is it that so many people who know and have worked with the Clintons are supporting Obama?

MCAULIFFE: Now, in fairness, Chris, I could give you a list of thousands upon thousands of people who worked in the Clinton administration who are out there every single day strongly supporting Hillary Clinton.

You're never going to get 100 percent of everybody. People make their decisions for their own reasons. As you know, we picked up seven or eight superdelegates last week.

I went out with a letter the other day -- we had eight former chairmen of the Democratic National Committee representing 40 years of working as chairs of the party -- the entire Ron Brown's family has come out -- the late Ron Brown's family all came out and endorsed Hillary strongly last week.

So you don't get everybody, but I feel very comfortable about where we are. As we look forward, I think the key point is in the polls we saw this week, independents are now breaking for Hillary Clinton.

You know what? They like her fight and they have seen her through the 16 months. They've seen people try to hold her down. Several times Senator Obama's campaign could have put Hillary down. She's right back fighting. People like it in this country when they see...

WALLACE: We've got about a minute left.

MCAULIFFE: ... someone get up, dust themselves off and fight for...

WALLACE: We've got about a minute left, gentlemen, so let me ask you for some final predictions. What are we going to see Tuesday in Indiana and North Carolina?

Mr. Andrew, you start.

ANDREW: Tough races. Barack Obama is going to win. And I think you're going to see this energy.

WALLACE: You think he's going to win both?

ANDREW: You're going to see him coming back.

WALLACE: Do you think he's going to win both, Mr. Andrew?

ANDREW: I think he's going to win both. I think he's going to win both because of this energy, this excitement and because of the fact that people realize that he's got some real plans here, not just political pandering.

WALLACE: And, Mr. McAuliffe, you get the final word.

MCAULIFFE: I feel very comfortable. We just won Pennsylvania with a 10-point lead. We are being outspent in these upcoming states two if not three to one. Every recent poll has both of these states basically too close to call.

So once again, outspent 3-1, a lot of negative advertising done against Hillary Clinton. Her message -- jobs, jobs, jobs.

WALLACE: Is she going to win...

MCAULIFFE: You stand up and fight for Hillary, she will fight for you as president of the United States.

WALLACE: Real quick, is she going to win -- real quick, Mr. McAuliffe, is she going to win both?

MCAULIFFE: Listen, I'm not going to predict today. I feel very comfortable where we are. You and I should talk, Chris, on election day. But you know what? People see Hillary Clinton fighting. They like it. She'll fight for you as president every single day.

WALLACE: That's a date. We'll talk on primary night.

MCAULIFFE: You bet.

WALLACE: Mr. McAuliffe...

MCAULIFFE: I'll be back.

WALLACE: ... Mr. Andrew, thank you both. Thanks to both of you for joining us today.

ANDREW: Look forward to it.

MCAULIFFE: Thank you.

WALLACE: Coming up, why are so many Democrats suddenly showing up on Fox News?

But first, does Clinton need to win both Indiana and North Carolina to keep her campaign alive? We'll hear from our band of Sunday regulars when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: This primary election on Tuesday is a game changer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We've had a rough couple of weeks. We are seeing terrific support all across Indiana and all across North Carolina.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: After a week of Reverend Wright and then superdelegates announcing their support, Clinton and Obama face still another set of must- win primaries Tuesday.

And it's time now for our Sunday group -- Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News, and Fox News contributors Mara Liasson of National Public Radio, Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard, and Juan Williams, also from National Public Radio.

Well, we've seen an interesting paradox, it seems to me, this week with Clinton climbing in the polls, both in the immediate races, North Carolina and Indiana, and in national polls as well, while at the same time Obama continues to pick up more superdelegates than her.

Brit, how do you explain it?

HUME: The problems that Barack Obama is having were always of a type that were going to hurt him more with the general election audience, if you will, than within the Democratic Party. You see that now in the polls, Hillary climbing in national polls versus McCain, Obama tailing off.

But it's a different story within the Democratic Party. It is easier, I think, for Democrats to forgive, or at least make allowance for, the Reverend Wright fiasco, which has now, you know, sort of repeated itself with the efforts again this week after he finally threw the guy overboard to explain what was really different, and the answer is not much. It only turned out that while Reverend -- what Obama found out about Reverend Wright this week was that Wright actually meant those things that he said that were supposedly simply spliced together and taken out of context. Well, it turns out that the context was what this guy really believes.

Still in all, though, you need -- Hillary Clinton needs to see a trend in which superdelegates start breaking for her in large numbers, and nothing that has happened to Barack Obama yet has caused that.

WALLACE: But, Mara, the superdelegates are clearly also looking ahead to winning in November.

LIASSON: Sure.

WALLACE: I mean, they desperately want to take back the White House. Why aren't they being scared off by the polls we show, which show that Clinton, at least for the moment, is running better against McCain?

LIASSON: Yeah. Look, I think that it has caused them some doubts. I think the steady trickle to him has continued. What Senator Clinton hasn't been able to do is kind of freeze them in place till the end of the primaries.

But when Brit says that it isn't causing him a problem in the Democratic primaries, look, his big lead in North Carolina has shrunk considerably. That's been a problem.

He even was ahead in some polls in Indiana. That's come down. It's a neighboring state for him. He's won all the other neighboring states of Illinois. I think it is causing him problems in the Democratic Party.

The question is, is it going to cause him enough problems that she could actually pull off a surprise win in North Carolina, or at least have the net margin of her wins in both states be positive.

But I also think the other big measure which we're not seeing is will it cause enough doubts among superdelegates to think that these problems make him so weak as a general election candidate that it's worth it to either -- to seriously consider overcoming his pledged delegate lead and giving it to her.

Superdelegates want to win in November. If they think that giving it to her is going to cause so many problems in the party, drive away young voters, alienate just enough African American voters, giving it to her is worthless to them.

WALLACE: Bill, what's your sense of where the races stand Tuesday in North Carolina and Indiana, and how important are they for both of these candidates?

KRISTOL: Well, Clinton has clearly been gaining in both states. I think she now seems to have a lead in Indiana, though the polls don't all agree on that. I would expect her to win Indiana by something like the margin she won Pennsylvania and Ohio, eight, nine points.

North Carolina is the interesting one. So I think, really, for Hillary Clinton to turn the momentum around, she needs better than a split verdict Tuesday. She needs either an incredibly close loss or, much better, obviously, a win in North Carolina.

I spoke this morning with a Republican political consultant in North Carolina, Mark Rotterman (ph), who's worked on one of the Republican races on the ballot there. He thinks she could win. He thinks right now it's three or four...

WALLACE: Win in North Carolina.

KRISTOL: Yes, he thinks it's closing. There's huge early turnout among black voters, which is probably good for Obama, but also among white voters, including in sort of lower income white districts.

Again, we always underestimate Hillary Clinton and say, "Well, the dynamic is with Obama." The Clintons have been campaigning extremely hard in North Carolina, Bill Clinton in small towns in eastern North Carolina, Hillary Clinton, I think, with a pretty effective economic message.

Obama has been badly hurt by Reverend Wright down there. That would be the big story, obviously, if Hillary Clinton could eke out a victory in North Carolina.

WALLACE: I was going to say, Juan, if -- and I repeat if, because most of the polls show Obama with still a fairly sizable lead, I mean, a big single-digit lead in North Carolina -- if Clinton were to win both states, do the wheels begin to come off the Obama campaign?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think that it makes the argument stronger for Hillary Clinton, but you know, I think Senator Clinton has a strong argument right now.

The problem is that superdelegates have just been so reluctant, I think out of fear -- fear in terms of the reaction coming from the black community, fear of reaction coming from people, especially young people, who have been so idealistic in their support of Barack Obama.

But if you're talking about the wheel coming off, I mean, the fact is those polls, national polls in terms of Democratic preference, have narrowed, so that Hillary Clinton has been climbing among white voters, specifically among men and specifically among white men, and independents as well.

So you've seen tremendous support now coming for Hillary Clinton. And this is in the aftermath not only of the Wright thing, but the elitism thing. And I think patriotism, which I can imagine now Republicans are just celebrating -- they're going to really play this patriotism thing to a fare-thee-well against Obama.

So his chances in November are starting -- you know, you hear people start to talk about Dukakis, Adlai Stevenson. He just looks like weak. And you know, Hillary Clinton talks about him not being tough enough to handle that kind of thing.

That argument's out there, Chris, but the superdelegates have been so fearful. I think that's what you see from Joe Andrew in your interview.

WALLACE: Of course, Brit, the most dramatic news this week was the Reverend Wright issue -- first of all, the reverend coming out and his performance at the National Press Club -- Obama called it a spectacle -- and then the next day Obama finally really cutting his ties to Reverend Wright.

Let's watch a bit of that exchange. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEREMIAH WRIGHT: Politicians say what they say and do what they do based on electability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: If Reverend Wright thinks that that's political posturing, as he put it, then he doesn't know me very well. And based on his remarks yesterday, well, I may not know him as well as I thought either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Brit, in crass political terms, how far did Obama go to stop the bleeding from Reverend Wright?

HUME: Well, he'll never erase the stain. The stain is on him. It will carry over. His image is damaged. He is hurt by this. And we may end up not talking about it very much, but he does not -- we are not seeing him, and I think this is true of a vast number of voters, through the same prism as we did before.

You know, people still can't answer the question why he sat there for 20 years, and he hasn't answered it either. At first, it worked to say, "Well, you know, it was just a tangential thing," occasional rhetorical flights of fancy by this guy that did not represent his ministry and what he's really about, this man whom Barack Obama has described as a close confidant. We're not hearing that anymore, are we?

So now comes the big moment at the press club. The guy reinforces all those controversial statements he's ever made, making it clear that he believes in all of them.

The night before at the NAACP speech in Detroit, he said some very exotic things about alleged genetic differences between blacks and whites, and the way their brains work and the way they learn -- I mean, stuff that was just out there where the buses don't run.

And now comes this moment, and Obama says he's shocked, shocked. The guy didn't know him very well. He didn't know the guy very well. That's not going to go away.

WILLIAMS: You know, the top way that voters describe Barack Obama is inexperienced, young, and then they go on to say he's a good person, he's an eloquent speaker and all.

But the fact of inexperience means people are coming to know Barack Obama, and they're looking for tells, you know, in the way you play poker and you look for a tell in your opponent. What is this guy really about? What's he really like?

And Reverend Wright has been the principal tell on Barack Obama. And what it reveals about him is not attractive. It suggests that he is taking political advantage when he sees possible -- in other words, going to Reverend Wright when he wanted to get secure in the black community in Chicago, then playing a game in that speech in Philadelphia that, you know, a lot of whites went just bananas about.

"Great speech on race. Let's have a conversation," says the New York Times, like people aren't talking about race. And now he see that he's backing off, because as you said, these are the exact same things that Reverend Wright was saying before on Al Qaida.

WALLACE: Mara, we've got about a minute left. Do you think this is - - it seems that your colleagues here think that this is pretty bad.

LIASSON: I think it's damaging. But there's a lot of things that Barack Obama has going for him this year, not to mention the huge political tilt toward Democrats.

But I do think that a more experienced politician, and older one, would have been more ruthless and would have taken care of this problem earlier. And this happened so fast to him, he didn't understand what he had to do, when he had to do it.

And he still isn't able to say that he should have done it earlier, but I think a lot of this comes from inexperience. He just wasn't a good enough politician to understand the problem he had and deal with it earlier.

WALLACE: All right. We need to step aside for a moment.

But up next, why are so many Democrats now showing up on Fox News? What's their strategy? And what's the reaction from the left wing of the party? We'll hear from our Sunday gang when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: On this day in 1998, Unabomber Ted Kaczynski was sentenced to life in prison, sparing him the death penalty. Kaczynski mailed bombs that killed three people and wounded 23 before being captured in 1996.

Stay tuned for more panel and our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCAULIFFE: Let me congratulate Fox, because you were the first ones to call it for Hillary Clinton. Fair and balanced Fox, you beat them all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED RENDELL: Fox has done the fairest job, has remained most objective, of all of the cable networks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Well, there you have two former Democratic Party chairmen praising the news coverage on Fox, the network that was boycotted by a number of leading Democratic candidates earlier in the campaign.

And we're back now with Brit, Mara, Bill and Juan.

Well, as we're all too aware, Democrats refused to come on Fox for the debates and for several shows. They did show up on others. John Edwards was, I think, the one who really led the boycott, openly appealing to the MoveOn.org left wing of the party.

Now we're having Obama coming on, and Clinton, and Howard Dean for the first time in 19 months. What I really want to talk about here is their strategy.

Brit, from their point of view, why has it changed?

HUME: Politics is about addition, not subtraction. It was never going to be a good idea for very long for any of these candidates to turn their back on the largest cable audience in television.

That applies even to this program as well. Although we're on the broadcast network, this program re-airs on the cable channel and is seen there in whole and in excerpts as well.

So this was -- I think it was kind of a shrewd move for Edwards to try to pick a fight with us early in the primary season to appeal, as you suggested, to the net roots, which are very important, particularly in fundraising, in the Democratic party.

It didn't work out very well for him because we didn't fight. We just kept on covering him the same way we covered everybody else. And the rest of the candidates had kind of gone along with this because it looked like smart strategy early.

Now, of course, they need to reach voters, blue-collar voters, Democrats in places like Indiana, Pennsylvania, West Virginia and states like that -- North Carolina. And they're going where the voters are, a little bit like the fabled Willie Sutton went to the banks. That's because that's where the money is.

We've got the viewers. They're here. No surprise.

WALLACE: Mara, I mean, let me ask you about that, because if it makes sense to do it now, was it a mistake to boycott Fox during all of 2007, or did it make sense at that particular point...

LIASSON: I think it makes sense then and it makes sense now.

WALLACE: ... in the primary to cater to the left wing?

LIASSON: Yes. I think it made sense then. It makes sense now. These are smart people. I mean, when it made sense to boycott Fox, they did. And now they're looking for votes that they think can be found among the audience -- makes sense now.

I mean, don't forget, there have been appearances by Barack Obama and Hillary on Fox for a long time, just not on your show or on Bill O'Reilly.

HUME: On a handful of shows, yes.

LIASSON: So there's also been -- you know, the target audience right now in the primaries that we're in right now are these, you know, lower income white voters.

I'm not saying that they're any more represented among Fox's audience than CNN's, but there is an effort to reach out to those voters, to figure out how to reach them. I think this is all, you know, completely political common sense from start to finish.

WALLACE: Let me ask you about the flip side of that, Bill, because the left wing of the Democratic party, MoveOn.org, the Daily Kos -- they're furious. I mean, they are really upset, if you read their Web sites, at the fact that they say these Democratic leaders are making a terrible mistake now coming on Fox.

Can Obama, can Clinton, can Howard Dean -- can they safely ignore those folks now?

KRISTOL: Well, I think if they're smart, they will. If they were smart, they would have. I don't agree that it was smart in 2007, to the degree they did boycott, to have boycotted. I mean, they went with -- this was part of a bigger picture.

They tried to end the war repeatedly. They tried to cut off funds for the troops. They didn't denounce MoveOn.org when they ran the "General Betray Us" ad when General Petraeus was testifying before Congress.

They were scared of the left wing of their party. I think Hillary Clinton has shown you can get an awful lot of votes by not pandering to the left wing of the party. It seems to me she's been gaining in the polls in the last month.

WALLACE: Well, she was pandering for a while there, wasn't she? She sure moved to the left on the war.

KRISTOL: She did move to the left on the war, but just look at the last month. She's been gaining on Obama. And to the degree there have been ideological divisions, she's clearly been more centrist.

You know, she said we should annihilate Iran if they attack Israel, and I didn't notice her poll numbers going down. She's been more populist, more centrist, and it's helping her. The party will be helped if they...

WALLACE: So you think it was a mistake to do this all the way back in 2007?

KRISTOL: I don't know. It's such a tiny thing in the big scheme of things whether you go on -- no offense. If people go on this show -- except for this show, which is a huge deal, of course. But I don't think the world stops or doesn't stop if people do one Fox interview or not.

But you know what was funny about the Terry McAuliffe quote, where he praises the fact that the Fox decision does call the Pennsylvania race I think 20 minutes before the other networks who were watching it -- and he makes the joke, which is funny, about fair and balanced. But of course, it shows how they do think about Fox, as if it's somehow -- that we're calling races based on ideology. It's so crazy. When you talk to the political scientists who work here, I have no idea what their views are.

In this case, we actually had very good political scientists doing a very quick -- making a quick and correct judgment on Pennsylvania, and it's just sort of funny that they see everything through such a political lens.

WILLIAMS: I must say it took CNN 20 more minutes, which is a lot of time in this business to suddenly make a call. You wonder about their political leanings and judgments when it comes to doing something as analytical as making a call.

But my sense is overwhelmingly that this is, you know, a mistake from the start, that you don't go away from a conversation even with people who are your ideological opponents.

And I think that's the problem with the debates. It pushed the party and it pushed the discussion farther to the left. And I don't think it was to the advantage of Democrats looking toward the general election, because ultimately you want to win the White House.

This is not about posturing. This is the problem with the superdelegates. I mean, they're going to stand on principle as opposed to saying, "Well, how do we win?" You've got to win.

And my thinking is along the lines of Jay Leno, who said, you know, if you're -- if you have to stand up to guys with nuclear weapons, how can you be afraid of Fox? Go on Fox. Have arguments. Take on Bill O'Reilly.

I mean, it's not like you can't respond, you can't say what you want to say. I get to say what I want to say to Brit Hume. You can say what you want to say. Have an argument.

WALLACE: All right. Let me pick up on another side of this, because both the New York Times and the L.A. Times had big articles about this on Sunday, the L.A. Times on the front page of the paper, about Democrats and Fox.

And I want to pick up on one part of what was in the L.A. Times article. Take a look at these numbers. They quoted a survey last year by a consumer research firm -- they interviewed 10,000 people -- that found 39 percent of Fox viewers describe themselves as conservatives, 47 percent as middle of the road, and 14 percent as liberal.

I've got to tell you, this is the first time I'd ever seen this survey. Surprisingly, that's not much different from CNN, where the audience was 33 percent conservative, 47 percent middle of the road and 20 percent liberal.

So, Brit, it sounds like a lot of these political strategists have been operating under faulty assumptions. HUME: I don't think that's it. I think it's that the -- this news channel had become the bete noir and the whipping boy for certain elements on the left, MoveOn.org in particular and Web sites like Daily Kos, deemed to be important to the Democratic base, or as an important part of the Democratic base.

And picking a fight with us or attempting to by staying off the channel, at least off certain programs, was thought a good idea for John Edwards, who had no traction in the race at the time, and he never got much out of it because he didn't succeed in picking the fight he wanted.

But you know, I don't think that anybody was making an empirical analysis of our audience in order to do that. They were trying to start something and make a political issue of something that was thought potentially beneficial. It didn't work out.

WALLACE: Go ahead.

LIASSON: No, I was just saying in terms of those polls, if you offer somebody conservative, liberal and middle of the road, middle of the road looks like a pretty attractive place to park yourself. I wonder if those same polls were taken just conservative and liberal how that would break down.

But you know, again, I think this is just -- nobody did an analysis like that. They just understood they were missing a huge chunk of people and they needed to reach them.

WALLACE: And why now? Is there something particularly? Because there are plenty of blue-collar white working-class voters, the kind of people who we're talking about, in earlier primaries. Why after Pennsylvania and Indiana and North Carolina? Why at this particular juncture?

KRISTOL: Well, maybe Hillary Clinton should have done it earlier. She might have won even more of the primaries earlier on than Obama.

But Obama coming on this past Sunday on "Fox News Sunday" strikes me as an indication that he's worried. And you know, I think actually he's worried. You know, he has now lost quite a few primaries to Hillary Clinton.

If he were to lose Indiana and North Carolina, it would be very close. And then to lose West Virginia and Kentucky, suddenly Clinton wins five, six, six of seven, maybe, of the most recent primaries. Suddenly Obama's inevitability looks a little shaky.

WILLIAMS: He hasn't won since February 22nd. But I think coming on here is just an evidence of, you know, you try to win a big audience, and Fox has the audience.

WALLACE: All right. Thank you, panel. See you next week.

Time now for some mail. And we got a lot about our interview last Sunday with Barack Obama.

Ann, who describes herself as a Democrat from North Carolina, writes, "I heard Senator Obama say more in this hour than I have ever heard him say about the issues. And when he would stray from the actual question, Mr. Wallace respectfully brought him back to it."

Rob Burton, a self-proclaimed Obama supporter from Covington, Kentucky disagrees. "I am starting to think I made a mistake and am rethinking my vote. I wish you guys would have dug into him. He seems unsure of himself when speaking. To me, that means he is hiding something."

Republicans sounded off, too. Mike Bogenreif, from Tallahassee, Florida writes, "I actually connected with Obama, shaking my head in agreement, thinking to myself that I could pull the lever for him."

And Christine Rouselle, a Republican from Sherrill, New York offered this, "It was refreshing to hear an adult conversation without the political bickering and posturing, where two people talk to each other with respect."

Be sure to let us know your thoughts by e-mailing us at fns@foxnews.com.

Up next, our Power Player of the Week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: Critics of John McCain's credentials to be president say he is weak on domestic policy, especially the economy. So where is McCain turning for advice? Well, to our Power Player of the Week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FIORINA: Both strategy and tactics are important in politics, and they're certainly important in business.

WALLACE: Carly Fiorina certainly knows plenty about business. From 1999 to 2005, she was the CEO of Hewlett-Packard, perhaps the most famous woman in corporate America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: ... great American and her knowledge and expertise.

Thank you, Carly, for being here.

FIORINA: Thank you very much, Senator.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now she's learning about presidential politics as a top adviser and surrogate for John McCain.

FIORINA: Politics, particularly in the thick of it, is much more day- to-day. In business, flexibility is key. But I don't recall thinking that if one thing happened today, we have to change our tactics quite as dramatically.

WALLACE: Fiorina is a quick study. Listen to how she deals with economic questions about McCain.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Won't voters blame McCain if the economy under a Republican president is still faltering this fall?

FIORINA: Well, that's certainly the conventional wisdom. There's no question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIORINA: He knows that one of the principal engines of growth of this economy is small business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But Fiorina quickly pivots to McCain's plan to reform unemployment insurance, providing not just benefits but also retraining for another job.

FIORINA: This is a program that John McCain has championed that President Bush has never spoken about and doesn't particularly support. So I think Senator McCain has to distinguish himself from the incumbent on the merits.

WALLACE: Fiorina was just as determined when she ran Hewlett- Packard, pushing through a highly controversial merger with Compaq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIORINA: I have learned how much I love this company and how much I'm really willing to fight for what I believe is right for this company.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: But when the merger led to lower profits and stock prices, the board fired her.

How painful was that?

FIORINA: I could have said I left for personal reasons or I left to pursue other interests. I preferred to tell the truth, and I knew that when we did tell the truth, I got fired. The headlines would make the most of that. You can live with the headlines if you can live with yourself.

WALLACE: Now she's on to the next chapter of her life and has done so well in the McCain campaign, she's attracting new buzz.

I don't have to tell you there is more and more talk about you as a possible vice presidential running mate.

FIORINA: Well, you know, that's an interesting parlor game in Washington right now, but honestly, I don't think voters are really focused on that right now.

WALLACE: Is it flattering to be mentioned?

FIORINA: Of course it's flattering to be mentioned. It's an honor to be mentioned. Of course it is.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And even if she doesn't end up on the ticket with McCain, expect to see plenty of Carly Fiorina this fall on the campaign trail.

Now, this program note. Be sure to watch Fox News Channel Tuesday night starting with Brit and "Special Report" for complete coverage of the Indiana and North Carolina primaries.

And that's it for today. Have a great week, and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday."

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