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February 03, 2008

McCain & Clinton on "Fox News Sunday"

Fox News Sunday

CHRIS WALLACE, HOST: I'm Chris Wallace reporting from our Super Tuesday election headquarters, and this is "Fox News Sunday."

Heading into Super Tuesday, each party has a frontrunner, and we have them both right here. John McCain -- his comeback almost complete. With a big win in Florida, what does he need to do to secure the nomination? We'll ask him.

Hillary Clinton goes head to head with her last challenger. Where does she look for big primary night victory? We'll ask her. McCain and Clinton, only on "Fox News Sunday."

Then, how did the candidates who dropped out affect the fight for delegates? We'll find out from our Sunday regulars -- Brit Hume, Mara Liasson, Bill Kristol and Juan Williams.

And we'll revisit a dramatic week on the trail, all right now on "Fox News Sunday."

And hello again, this time from our Fox News election headquarters in New York. Well, after seven Republican primaries and caucuses, a frontrunner has emerged as we head into Super Tuesday.

We continue our series "Choosing the President" with the Republican candidate, who is now the man to beat in the GOP race, Senator John McCain, who joins us from our Washington studio.

And, Senator, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

MCCAIN: Thank you, Chris. Good to be back with you.

WALLACE: Senator, can you wrap up the race for the Republican nomination in two days?

MCCAIN: Well, I hope so. But you know, you don't know for sure. I think we got a lot of good momentum and a lot of endorsements, and crowds who are enthusiastic, and we're working hard, and I'm guardedly optimistic.

But I can't predict it. There have been too many ups and downs so far in this primary for me to predict even 48 hours ahead of time.

WALLACE: All right. There are 1,023 delegates at stake on Super Tuesday. And with so many of the races winner take all, how many delegates do your strategists tell you that you might be able to pick up then?

MCCAIN: Honestly, we haven't gotten down to that detail. We've just kind of been looking at it state by state, and we think we're doing well in most of the states. And there's still not real strong polling data in a couple. But honestly, Chris, I haven't gotten into that kind of detail. We're too busy doing the rallies and the town hall meetings and the campaigning.

WALLACE: Let me ask you about one strategic -- or perhaps it's a tactical move. I notice that you're going to be watching the Super Bowl tonight in Massachusetts, which coincidentally happens to be the home state of your top opponent, Mitt Romney.

Is there some thought that if you can beat Mitt Romney in his home state that would be a knockout blow that would force him out of the race?

MCCAIN: No, I think it's more that we're competitive, we think, in Massachusetts. We know that Governor Romney has a very strong advantage there, but we'd like to compete in every state.

And so we'll be doing a rally there tomorrow morning in Boston and then moving on to some of the other states in the region and then ending up on Tuesday afternoon in Phoenix after a rally in San Diego.

So we're trying to criss-cross the country. As you know, we were in the south yesterday and we'll go north today. It's a lot of -- with that many states at stake, you've got a lot of ground to cover.

WALLACE: Republican insiders, Senator, say that your big job going forward is to reach out to conservatives. Here's what one McCain insider said the other day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: How much support do you think he has among the base of the Republican Party?

ROBERTA MCCAIN, SENATOR JOHN MCCAIN'S MOTHER: I don't think he has any. I don't know what the base of the Republican -- maybe I don't know enough about it, but I've not seen any help whatsoever.

QUESTION: So can he then go on and become the nominee of this party?

R. MCCAIN: Yes, I think holding their nose they're going to have to take him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Oh, boy, Senator. One, is your mother right? And two, how do you persuade conservatives to stop holding their nose?

MCCAIN: I love my mother dearly, more than anything in the world, but really, my mom is not a complete expert on this issue, and I love her and I love her candor, and she's been a great, great asset, particularly whenever the age issue comes up.

But look. We're doing fine with the conservatives and the moderates and the liberals, if there are any. We're doing fine. In Florida we got, as you know, a majority of the Republican vote. It was a Republican-only primary. And we're doing well.

As you mentioned, in all the polling across the board, the key is to unite the party. We have strong support from people like Jack Kemp and Phil Gramm. Steve Forbes signed up. We're getting a lot of that kind of good support from across the party.

But we've got a lot of work to do. Chris, you know, everybody knows, primaries are tough. Primaries are very tough, and there's a lot of strong feelings. But the job is -- when the primaries are over, is to unite the entire party, and I'm confident I can do that.

I have a strong conservative record, and I'm proud of that record, and I also believe on the national security side it's going to be a clear difference between me and Senator Clinton or Senator Obama, a clear difference on whether we're going to increase spending or decrease spending, increase taxes or decrease taxes, whether we're going to withdraw from Iraq or we're going to see this thing through to the success that it's obvious to me we can achieve now.

So there's going to be real strong differences, and I think that our party will unite, and I've got some work to do. But it's all parts of the party.

WALLACE: Senator, let's talk about some of the issues that worry conservatives the most. You were one of only two Republicans who voted against the 2001 Bush tax cut, and since then you've been saying, "Well, the reason was because they didn't have spending cuts along with it."

Senator, we checked your speech before the final vote in the 2001 tax cut, the Bush tax cut, and here's what you had to say. Let's put it up on the screen. "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us at the expense of middle-class Americans who most need tax relief."

Senator, we checked the speech. You never once mentioned the fact that there weren't spending cuts.

MCCAIN: Well, I mentioned it many, many times and, more importantly, perhaps, is that I had a tax cut package of my own which was very significant, but it also included restraints in spending.

Look. Phil Gramm, one of my strongest supporters, and our other economic conservatives -- Jack Kemp; even the so-called supply-siders -- will tell you that if you let spending get out of control, you're going to have the problems we have today.

I predicted that if we didn't get restraint of spending, we were going to lose elections and it led to corruption. And if we'd have done what I wanted to do, we'd be talking about more tax cuts now, not less. And I'm proud of that record, and, unfortunately, I was right.

WALLACE: But, Senator, let me just clear this up.

MCCAIN: Sure. WALLACE: In fact, in 2001, you voted for a tax cut, but one that was targeted more at the middle class, and you voted against the tax cut when it was favored or tilted more toward the wealthy.

Don't you sound a little bit like Obama or Clinton on that?

MCCAIN: I don't think so, Chris. Back in 1983 and '84, when I first came to the Congress as a foot soldier in the Reagan revolution, I was one of those who fought hard for tax cuts, and we were able to get them.

And after that we had one of the greatest periods of economic prosperity in history. I voted for spending restraints along with my friend Phil Gramm and Jack Kemp and many others.

My record is very clear of support for tax cuts but also fighting against waste and pork barrel spending, which has not enhanced my popularity sometimes in the United States Senate.

And I went after Abramoff, and I went after a Boeing deal that was going to cost the taxpayers an additional $6 billion. I've been after them and I'll stay after them.

And as president, I can understand why it might make a few of them nervous that depend on pork barrel and earmark spending.

WALLACE: Senator, let's do a lightning round, if you will...

MCCAIN: OK.

WALLACE: ... on these hot-button issues involving quick questions, quick answers.

As president, will you veto any tax increase passed by a Democratic Congress?

MCCAIN: Yes.

WALLACE: That's quick, but -- and in fact, I think...

MCCAIN: Well, I think the worst thing we can do right now, Chris, is -- we've got some shaky economic times -- is to increase people's taxes. And I think that what we need is more tax cuts. We need to make Bush tax cuts permanent.

We need to get rid of the ATM. Corporate taxes in America are the second highest in the world. We need to cut corporate taxes. We need to give people reasons to write off and depreciation their business investments and equipment investments.

We need to stop the pork barrel spending. Look, the president signed into law two major spending bills that had $35 billion worth of earmark projects. And if we had taken that money, we could have given a $1,000 tax credit for every child in America.

This is big money. Everybody says, "Oh, it really isn't that much." It's a lot. And even more importantly than that, it has totally eroded the confidence of the American people about what we do with their tax dollars.

WALLACE: New question: Will you appoint conservative Supreme Court justices even if you have reason to believe that they might vote to overturn McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform?

MCCAIN: I was very aware of the opinion of Justices Roberts and Alito, and I was one who fought hard for the confirmation of both of them.

First of all, I wouldn't impose any litmus test. That would be totally inappropriate.

But second of all, I will appoint justices such as the ones I've strongly supported and gotten through the Senate, with the help of many others or help along with others, only those who strictly interpret the Constitution of the United States and do not legislate from the bench. And I have a clear record of that, too.

WALLACE: And even if they might vote to overturn Roe vs. Wade and also McCain-Feingold.

MCCAIN: Look, you cannot impose litmus tests. If you have justices that have a clear conservative -- a clear, strict interpretation of the Constitution of the United States, then you don't have to worry about what their decisions will be, because it's pretty obvious that people who strictly interpret the Constitution of the United States are worthy of our confidence.

And by the way, I think the voters ought to consider that when they decide who they want to be president of the United States.

WALLACE: Hillary Clinton, speaking of that, is going to be joining us in a moment. She'll be our next guest. And I wonder, as we prepare for what could be a Clinton -- well, actually, she's right there right now.

Senators, do you want to say anything to each other?

MCCAIN: Hello.

CLINTON: Hi, John.

MCCAIN: How are you?

WALLACE: Are you two looking forward...

CLINTON: I'm good. Hope you're well.

MCCAIN: Thank you.

WALLACE: Are you two looking forward to possibly facing each other in November?

MCCAIN: I think we will have a very spirited... CLINTON: Well, I think we both have our hands full.

MCCAIN: Yeah.

WALLACE: What were going to say, Senator McCain?

MCCAIN: No, I just said I think we'll have very respectful but very spirited debate. I think that Senator Clinton would be the first to acknowledge, as she's already mentioned in several appearances and debates with the Democrats that we'll have very significant differences.

And I think the American people will see those differences and make a judgment.

WALLACE: Senator Clinton, we're going to talk to you in a moment. But do you have a response to that?

CLINTON: No, I agree with that. I think that, you know, John and I will have a respectful debate, but we do have serious differences about the direction of the country and what we think should be done.

But that's exactly the kind of election that our country needs right now, and I'm looking forward to it.

WALLACE: Well, we'll get to you in a second after the break, Senator Clinton.

But, Senator McCain, it's your time. Let me ask you...

MCCAIN: Do you want to start that debate now?

WALLACE: I'm ready if you're ready.

(LAUGHTER)

But let me ask you, Senator McCain, on a couple of issues -- first of all, the war. Senator Clinton says, look, she'll get us out in 60 days. You're going to have us there 100 years.

MCCAIN: Well, the key is success, and the key is American casualties. We are succeeding. But as I've said many times, Al Qaida is on the run. They are not defeated. But this strategy is succeeding.

And I believe that if we had set a date for withdrawal or if we do set a date for withdrawal, Al Qaida will then win and we'll see chaos and genocide in the region. That's another significant difference that Senator Clinton and I have, and I look forward to discussing it.

It's not a matter of how long Americans stay. It's a matter of American casualties. And those casualties are coming down, and we can eliminate them. Look, we're in Kuwait right next door to Iraq. We're in Turkey. We're in Bosnia. We're all over the world. One of the obligations, unfortunately, of being a great superpower is that we have to take care of the world's security.

But we don't have to have casualties because we can succeed in the strategy called the surge which is now, I think, experiencing significant success.

But let me just finally add, what we saw -- what we saw with these evil people putting bombs on women with mental disabilities and detonating them remotely shows you how evil this enemy we are facing and how implacable they are and how we've got to defeat them, and we will.

WALLACE: Senator, we've got about a minute left. I want to ask you...

MCCAIN: Sure.

WALLACE: ... also about the economy. We saw the first loss of jobs in almost five years in this last month. Why would you be better fit than Senator Clinton to turn the economy around?

MCCAIN: Look, I haven't won this primary yet, Chris, so I'm not focusing on Senator Clinton yet. I've got good people who are running. This is going to be a spirited election on Tuesday. So let's put it in the right perspective.

I think that lower taxes, less spending -- I think more tax changes so that we can stimulate investment and savings, and fixing our tax code -- I think there's a whole lot of things we can do economically.

And the first thing I'd like to see is the stimulus package, which I don't agree with everything -- get that through, make the tax cuts permanent, get rid of the AMT.

Let's have some depreciation, reduce write-offs for depreciation, reduce the wasteful and unnecessary spending, and reduce the corporate taxes which are driving businesses and jobs out of America.

There's a lot of significant steps we need to take. America's hurting right now in a lot of areas, and we've got to act, and act effectively, but it isn't through tax increases.

WALLACE: And finally, the big question we've saved for last, Senator -- Patriots or Giants?

MCCAIN: As I've said before, I hate to say. We welcome them to Arizona and we hope they spend lots and lots of money, and we know they will. And I hope they'll come back soon.

But somebody's got to show me how you beat the Patriots.

WALLACE: Well, you're there in Massachusetts, so you're in the right place to make that prediction.

Senator McCain, we want to thank you so much for talking with us. And good luck on Super Tuesday, sir.

MCCAIN: Thanks again, Chris.

WALLACE: Up next, we will talk with the Democratic frontrunner, Senator Hillary Clinton. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: And we're back live from Fox News election headquarters in New York. Joining us now, the Democratic frontrunner as we head into Super Tuesday, Senator Hillary Clinton, who comes to us from the campaign trail in St. Louis.

And, Senator, welcome back to "Fox News Sunday."

CLINTON: It's good to talk to you, Chris. Thanks for having me back.

WALLACE: Well, as Senator McCain rightly pointed out, you've both got tough nomination fights before you even face the possibility of facing each other, but there are some sharp issues there, so let's talk about them.

First of all, the economy. Why would you be better fit than Senator McCain to turn this economy around as we seem to be headed for a downturn, if not a recession?

CLINTON: Well, it is the case that the economy is becoming a greater and greater concern because, obviously, it's not working for the vast majority of Americans.

I've been out there since March talking about this mortgage crisis and urging much more aggressive action to stem the foreclosures that are beginning to cascade around the country.

That's why I called for a moratorium of 90 days to try to stop foreclosures and help people work out being able to stay in their homes, and freezing interest rates for five years, looking for ways to try to get the housing market stabilized, because I think that we've -- you know, we have had the monetary side. The Fed has reduced interest. They may do some more. We don't know.

But at some point you've got to have government action to really tackle these problems. And the stimulus package is a start, but it's not nearly enough. What we have to do is have an economic policy that once again creates jobs with rising incomes.

We need to look at clean green energy. We need to have a much greater balance in our federal government spending. Obviously, I disagree with Senator McCain and the Republicans about the tax cuts for people making more than $250,000 a year. I think we should let those expire and use that money on universal health care and other needs that people have that are really directly related to the state of the economy.

WALLACE: Let's talk about the other big issue that the two of you have identified as a difference. And that, of course, is the war in Iraq.

At a recent debate, you had an interesting exchange about the war. Let's take a look at that, Senator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: In light of the new military and political progress on the ground there in Iraq, are you looking to end this war or win it?

CLINTON: I'm looking to bring our troops home starting within 60 days of my becoming president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator, you started calling for pulling U.S. troops out of Iraq in November of 2005. If we had followed your policy, wouldn't Al Qaida by now be able to say that they had driven the U.S. out of Iraq?

CLINTON: You know, Chris, I think we have to look at this in the context in which it's taking place. The so-called surge was designed to give the Iraqi government the space and time to make the tough decisions that only the Iraqis can make for themselves.

It's my assessment that only now is the Iraqi government starting to grapple with problems that many of us have been pushing them to resolve for five years.

And the problem is that they have up until now believed that they didn't really have to take any tough action, that President Bush had given them basically a blank check, that the American military would be there to protect them and protect other parts of the country.

And I think that putting forward a very clear objective of beginning to withdraw our troops is the best way to get the Iraqis to take responsibility. So I think that it's clear there is no military solution.

We can stay for a day, a month, a year, 10 or 100 years, as Senator McCain has said would be fine with him, but I don't think that's the answer. I think we've got to bring our troops home and really require and put the pressure on the Iraqis to make the tough decisions that they have to make.

WALLACE: Well, let me follow up on that, if I can. Last September when General Petraeus testified before Congress about the surge working, here was your reaction. Let's take a look. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I think that I -- the reports that you provide to us really require the willing suspension of disbelief.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Senator, since then, the violence is clearly dropping, has continued to drop. Baghdad is sharing oil revenue with the provinces. They have passed a law to allow at least some Sunnis back into the government.

Clearly, there are a lot of problems, but why are you so determined to declare defeat?

CLINTON: Well, that's not at all what I'm doing. I think there's a difference between tactical success on the ground -- and I've been, you know, very positive about what our young men and women in uniform can accomplish, especially if we put them in in sufficient numbers -- and strategic success.

And I think you're overstating what is happening in Iraq. There's a lot of problems getting money from the central government into the Sunni areas. The oil bill hasn't been resolved yet.

De-Baathification is tied up in their parliament because there is such a reaction to it by many of the Shiite factions. You know, this is, obviously, a fractious and often contentious government.

And I think we would not even see the small signs of progress unless they knew that there was an election going on in the United States and one of the biggest issues was whether we would stay for up to 100 years or whether we would start bringing our troops home.

I personally believe there is no American military solution. And it is imperative that we focus our attention on the political and diplomatic side of this equation. So beginning to withdraw our troops is not only the right thing to do for our troops, but it is also the right political strategy for us to pursue.

WALLACE: Let's turn to the issue immediately at hand, and you've got an election or a series of elections in a couple of days, Senator.

None of the contests, the Democratic contests, on Super Tuesday are winner take all, so the result is that in most states, both you and Senator Obama are going to win a lot of delegates.

Doesn't that mean that this contest is going to go on for some period of time, even months after Super Tuesday?

CLINTON: Well, we'll see after Tuesday, Chris. But you're right that the rules in our party really are much more challenging.

This whole Super Tuesday national primary is something nobody's ever gone through before. We're kind of making it up as we go. So it's hard to sit here and predict what will happen on Tuesday or what happens the next day.

But I'm very excited and encouraged by the response I'm getting across the country. You know, I've had huge crowds. I've had a lot of people coming forward to support me. There seems to be a lot of great activity going on on the ground in all of these states. So we'll see what happens on Tuesday.

But obviously, this is a very contested race for the Democratic nomination, and as I've said many times in the last few days, I think for the country, looking at the debate the other night, seeing the two of us there was such a thrill, because we represent -- we have lived the progress that has been made in America. Each of us has broken barriers.

So whoever wins the nomination will change American history. The question is who has the strength and experience to change America for the better, to put us on the right path. And I'm going to keep making that case as many times as I can between now and Tuesday.

WALLACE: Senator, let me ask you about the horse race, though. Most of the national polls indicate you're still leading but that Obama has closed the gap, has reduced your margin by a significant amount in the last couple of weeks. How do you explain that?

CLINTON: Oh, this is always going to be a close election, Chris. You know, we have two people left. Both of us have passionate supporters. I think it's exciting. You know, we're out here making our case.

Obviously, I think I have the better case to go up against the Republican nominee, particularly if it is Senator McCain. But I believe this has revitalized the Democratic Party.

Each of us is bringing hundreds of thousands of new people into politics. We've had six contests. I've won four of them. We're in a very good position. But you know, we don't count the votes until Tuesday.

And I think all of us have learned that these polls -- they're maybe snapshots in a very limited period of time, so what's most important is who decides to vote. And I hope a lot of people watching will turn out and do exactly that.

WALLACE: Senator, the high profile your husband has had on the campaign trail has raised, as you no doubt know, new questions about the issue of a co-presidency.

Have you thought if you were to win how you would set up the White House to make it clear who was the boss?

CLINTON: Oh, I don't think there'll be any doubt about that, Chris, you know, just as there wasn't any doubt that he was the president and the commander in chief. And all of us, including everyone in the White House, and that was me as well, were there to support his efforts. That's what it will be when I'm in the White House. I will be the decision-maker. Obviously, I'm going to seek advice from a wide range of people who have expertise and experience that will be helpful in making decisions, and that certainly includes him, because I think he'll play a very important role in representing our country around the world.

But at the end of the day, I know very well, having been there for eight years, that the weight of decision-making falls on the president. I'm ready to accept that responsibility. I don't believe in government by advisers.

I believe we need a president who is a hands-on manager of the government. I think that's what I offer, and that's what I intend to do.

WALLACE: Let me ask you about another aspect of your husband's role. There was a front page story this week in the New York Times reporting that in 2005, your husband flew to Kazakhstan with a Canadian businessman, and he helped the businessman, according to the report, get a huge uranium deal by praising the dictator, Nazarbayev, who runs the country there, and then a few months later, that businessman, the Canadian businessman, made a $31 million donation to the Clinton Foundation.

Now, whether it was a quid pro quo or not, are you going to tell your husband if you become president to cool it, to knock off those kinds of dealings?

CLINTON: Well, Chris, that is a very one-sided and inaccurate description of what actually occurred.

WALLACE: Well, it's basically what the New York Times said.

CLINTON: Well, let me set the record straight. He went to Kazakhstan to sign an agreement with the government to provide low- cost drugs for HIV/AIDS, a growing problem in central Asia.

While he was there, he met with opposition leaders and certainly spoke out about, you know, the hopes that we have to have a good relationship with that country.

I have been on record for many years against the anti-democratic regime, calling for changes, standing against efforts that would bring them into positions of leadership in the global community without their making changes.

So I think it is clear that I will stand on my own two feet. I will say what I believe. And I will be a president who pursues policies that I think are in the best interests of our country.

WALLACE: Well, if I may just briefly follow up, that's exactly the case. You had spoken out against Nazarbayev's policies, but President Clinton, former President Clinton, attended a dinner at which he, in fact, said he thought that Nazarbayev could lead an organization involved with regulating democracy around the world. And the question is raised if you're president and he's the former president, and he's conducting and making statements that are out of step with your policy, isn't it going to be awfully confusing?

CLINTON: Well, Dick Cheney also went to Kazakhstan and praised the current regime. You know, you sometimes have to use both carrots and sticks to move these regimes to do what they should be doing.

But I don't think there's any doubt about where I stand and what I intend to do. Obviously, these are difficult problems that require seasoned leadership.

We have a lot of interests in that part of the world with natural resources and trying to make sure there's a bulwark against spreading extremism.

So it is important that you walk the line to try to be very firm about our support for democracy, to do everything possible to change these regimes, but recognize that these are not, you know, often easy calls, because the last thing we want is to see instability, perhaps the rise of an extremist regime, alliances with bad actors.

So you know, I think that it's something that I understand and I'll be able to navigate through as president.

WALLACE: And finally, Senator, we've got about 30 seconds left for you to give your answer to the big question -- Patriots or Giants?

CLINTON: Well, Chris, we have a Super Bowl Sunday night and we have a Super Tuesday on Tuesday, and I'm hoping that the New York team wins both and wins big.

WALLACE: All right. Thank you, Senator. We want to thank you so much for talking with us, giving those double predictions, political and sports. And safe travels on the campaign trail, Senator.

CLINTON: Thanks a lot, Chris.

WALLACE: Coming up, now that we've heard from the frontrunners, what's going to happen on Super Tuesday? We'll get the inside scoop from our Sunday regulars when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I know it's tempting to simply turn back the clock, to look backwards and try to build a bridge back to the 20th century.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Barack Obama on the trail this week taking a not- so-subtle dig at Hillary and Bill Clinton.

And it's time now for our Sunday group -- Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox News, and Fox News contributors Mara Liasson of National Public Radio, Bill Kristol of The Weekly Standard, and Juan Williams, also from National Public Radio.

Well, as we discussed with Senator Clinton, she leads the Democratic race for Super Tuesday not only nationally but in most states, but Obama has closed the gap significantly in recent days, which raises the question, Brit, does he have enough time to actually pass her and beat her on Tuesday?

HUME: I don't think he can beat her on Tuesday, but he has a lot of momentum, and she has, I think, less. And the likely outcome of Super Tuesday is, in terms of delegates, kind of a split verdict in which she will get more, but he'll get a lot, and he'll then have no incentive to give way to her.

Indeed, you know, if he has a few surprises, which is distinctly possible in some big states, or maybe in a bunch of littler states, he would have every incentive to keep going, and it's hard to see any end in sight on the Democratic side.

WALLACE: Yeah, let me just say one thing, Mara, because with the Democrats, it is -- instead of winner take all in any state, it's done by proportional representation.

LIASSON: That's right.

WALLACE: And in fact, in places -- in congressional districts where, let's say, there are four delegates, if one person gets 60 percent and one gets 40 percent, they both get two.

LIASSON: Right, they still get two.

WALLACE: They both get two delegates.

LIASSON: It's only if you get over 59 percent that you get a bonus delegate.

WALLACE: No, I think it's two-thirds.

LIASSON: Or two-thirds. Whatever. But you get a bonus delegate if you get to a certain amount.

Look, it is mathematically impossible for her to sew this up on Tuesday. It just is. She has to get to 2,025 delegates. I don't think that's possible given what we think he's going to get on Tuesday.

He certainly is going to get delegates in every state, including New York State, her own state. I think this race is going to go on. I think Obama has shown that when he is able to campaign in the state, he can go from single digits to close to victory or victory pretty quickly.

And that's what he hasn't had in this incredibly telescoped primary schedule. But I think the race will go on after Tuesday, and he'll have more time to make his case to more states.

I think the big question is exactly what you posed. I mean, does he have enough time? The momentum is with him, but is it enough and fast enough?

WALLACE: Bill, I mean, Super Tuesday, but also taking a look at where we go from there, where do you see this race right now between the two of them?

KRISTOL: I think it's basically dead even, and I've been trying to think about what can sort of add to one candidate or another's momentum. And there are a couple of people out there who can make a difference, I think.

John Edwards, who could, after all, have quite a lot of support, 15 percent, 20 percent in most national polls, who has not yet endorsed either candidate. He's reported to prefer Obama.

Will he endorse Obama today or tomorrow and try to make a difference on Super Tuesday? Will he wait a week or two and endorse before the next wave of primaries? Hard to know.

The other obvious person who could make a difference is Al Gore, who has an awful lot of respect and loyalty, I would say, from Democrats. I think if Edwards and Obama came out for -- if Edwards and Gore came out for Obama, joining Teddy Kennedy, I think Obama could beat Clinton.

WILLIAMS: Oh, I think what's going to happen -- I mean, in fact, if you look at the people who are voting for John Edwards, especially among white voters, he was sharing them with Hillary Clinton, and it's most likely that they're going to migrate to Hillary Clinton, not to Barack Obama.

And I'm struck by numbers out this morning, and you have polls that indicate Hillary Clinton leading anywhere from seven to four points. It's not a huge lead, but it's a substantial lead on a national scale.

And she has a strong lead especially among women. That's the determinative group. And it hasn't shifted from Iowa to New Hampshire to anywhere. That's the group. And in fact, it's plus 20 among white women right now for Hillary Clinton.

Barack Obama's support is coming from African Americans, not from Latinos -- again, a key group for Hillary Clinton, especially looking at California.

Barack Obama had a stunning month, you must say. It's not just momentum. Gosh, if you look at the fundraising figures -- $32 million in one month. It's a historic amount of money that he has raised.

But the question is is this, you know, going to amount to him winning in these states. And everybody here today is talking about delegate counts, delegate counts.

You know what? Hillary Clinton is going to amass so many states -- I mean, we can go down the line. If you want to look at California, she's got a lead -- New Jersey, New York, here in New York, Massachusetts.

WALLACE: But, Juan, even if she wins those states, she might only pick up 15, 20 more delegates.

WILLIAMS: You're missing the point. You keep repeating it. The headlines throughout the country on Wednesday morning are going to be Hillary Clinton wins state after state after state.

HUME: Juan...

WILLIAMS: And people are going to say "Well, the internal delegate numbers are closer." True. But the impact and the momentum is going to be for Clinton. And I think you've got to give her her due.

LIASSON: Well, the Clinton campaign certainly hopes...

HUME: But, Juan, if you think -- put yourself in Barack Obama's position come Wednesday morning. He looks out across the country, and even if it happens as you say it will, and all the headlines list the big states that she has, quote, "won," and he's looking at the delegate count, and he's got a barrel of money in his coffers...

WILLIAMS: He sure has.

HUME: ... and he will win some places. He'll win Illinois, for example.

What incentive does he have to give way? I think he has none. I think he goes on. And then you're looking at -- you know, we're looking into March, where the next time we have a really... WALLACE: Yeah, we've got Ohio in March. We've got Pennsylvania in April. I mean, there are a lot of big states in contest.

HUME: Right, and then there's the whole question of what happens with the super delegates, so-called. These are 800 people who are elected officials and other party leaders who are free agents. They can go whatever way they want.

They tend to go, if they're elected, with the result in their own home state or district. But they could break against her. I mean, there's a lot of things that could happen here.

WILLIAMS: Well, what we've seen already is that those super delegates favor Hillary Clinton...

LIASSON: Right now. Right now.

WILLIAMS: ... as part of the party...

LIASSON: Right now.

HUME: Right now. But they could change.

WILLIAMS: And so can -- delegates from most of these states can change. The point is...

HUME: No.

LIASSON: No.

HUME: No, they're bound.

WILLIAMS: ... that what you -- yes, they -- well, in the first round they're going to have to pretty much display some loyalty. But after that, they're free agents if you want to go to an open convention scenario.

But that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm saying is if you -- you know, Jesse Jackson -- as a result of Jesse Jackson's campaigns is why we have this proportional breakdown of delegates now.

But if you look in terms of the overall impact on what people are saying come Tuesday, I think you're going to see a big, big victory for Hillary Clinton.

WALLACE: I want to talk about, before we end the Democrats, the interesting, fascinating moment on the stage of that debate this week at the Kodak Theatre in Los Angeles when Clinton and Obama were asked would they serve on the same ticket, either Clinton-Obama or Obama- Clinton.

Clearly, and you could tell from the applause in that very liberal crowd out there, Mara, Democrats would love it. Do you think there's any chance that could actually happen?

LIASSON: I don't know. It's something I've been thinking about for a long time. I mean, on the one hand, if she was the nominee, what better dose of excitement she could give to the Democratic ticket than bringing a guy who's done what he's done, which is amazing, you know, who gets these rallies and inspires people and brings new voters into the party?

On the other hand, you'd have to ask him, do you really want to be the vice president after Bill Clinton. You know, after there's Hillary, there's Bill, and then there's him. So who knows? But it would be a ticket that many, many Democrats really want.

KRISTOL: I don't think Senator Obama is going to pick Senator Clinton as his running mate.

LIASSON: That is true. I totally agree with that. He would never pick her.

KRISTOL: Since he's going to be the nominee, contrary to Juan -- look, the only people for Hillary Clinton are the Democratic establishment and white women.

The Democratic establishment -- it would be crazy for the Democratic Party to follow an establishment that's led it to defeat year after year. White women are a problem, you know?

(LAUGHTER)

HUME: Bill, for the record, I like white women.

(LAUGHTER)

KRISTOL: I know, I shouldn't have said that.

WALLACE: All right. Wait, wait.

WILLIAMS: You know, if you look at the polls this morning, what does it say? All the people who are most energized are the Clinton supporters. I'm surprised. I mean, you've got a lot of the young people out there for Barack Obama. But if you look at who's strongest in their support, it comes down to Clinton.

WALLACE: All right. Final 15 seconds to Brit on the issue of the Obama-Clinton ticket.

HUME: I think she'd be wise to pick him, and I think it would make sense for him to take it.

WALLACE: Even with Bill Clinton there, too? I mean, it would be a pretty crowded Oval Office.

HUME: I didn't say it was a perfect offer.

WALLACE: Or even an offer he can't refuse.

HUME: Right.

WALLACE: All right. We need to take a quick break here.

But coming up, the war of words between McCain and Romney intensifies as they head for Super Tuesday. We'll handicap the GOP race after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: On this day in 2004, Democratic presidential candidates sought to win the seven-state mini Tuesday. John Kerry won in five of the states and went on to become the party's nominee that summer.

Stay tuned for more from our panel and "On the Trail."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: Who can talk about change? Who can talk about the future? Who represents the past? And who represents the future?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: That was Mitt Romney this week trying to define his race against John McCain and, no doubt, to remind voters about McCain's age.

And we're back now with Brit, Mara, Bill and Juan.

So, Brit, can Mitt Romney still turn this race around?

HUME: I think the chances of his doing so are diminishing. You can sense that Florida was a tipping point for McCain. And there's now a feeling that he is going to be the nominee.

There is a bit of an aura of inevitability about this campaign of his, once given up for completely lost. He's come all the way back and then some.

The right that objects to McCain -- and people on the -- a lot of people on the right really object to McCain -- has begun to swing in the person of some talk radio hosts who matter in this situation behind Romney, but I think it's late.

And I don't think that conservative voters have ever really developed an affinity for or a feeling of comfort with or any real sense for Romney, which is what he needs. So I think it's tough.

WALLACE: Mara, I want to pick up on that, because Romney has spent a lot of money. He's spent about $100 million, best we can figure, which is, you know, far more than any of the other Republicans.

And yet in the new polls, he's getting beat by McCain by more than 2- 1. What's the problem with Romney? Why has he failed to connect with voters, especially conservative voters?

LIASSON: Look, Romney created a by-the-numbers campaign. He reached out to every piece of what he understood was the Republican coalition. He took every position that was necessary to take, but it was -- it just was assembled as if by a computer. It never, as Brit said, made a real connection with voters.

I think there has been suspicion that he could not get rid of about the changing of his positions. They were sincere changes, I think. You know, he's not going to flip back on them, but that has been a problem for him all along.

I think the other thing I just want to say about this race on the Republican side -- this has been extraordinary. Every candidate at some point in the campaign has to heave their campaign over the finish line just by dint of their own force of will or personality.

And John McCain has done that, I think, in a way that's been more extraordinary than any other candidate I've ever seen. I mean, he went from bare metal and he did it just by himself -- you know, 102 town meetings in New Hampshire, and it really has been extraordinary.

I mean, I don't think we've seen a comeback like this. He went into the red more than anyone else, took out a loan, had to take out a life insurance policy on himself to get it. I mean, who else has taken that kind of risk? So you've got to hand it to him.

WALLACE: And let me talk, if we can, Bill, about this last week, because it seems to me the McCain campaign has been brilliant in building momentum right out of Florida -- the Giuliani endorsement, the Schwarzenegger endorsement this weekend. The two conservative senators from Georgia, Saxby Chambliss and Johnny Isakson, have endorsed McCain.

I mean, they have been brilliant. They've been masterful at building this bandwagon effect.

KRISTOL: They've done a good job. But it helps to win. You know, winning three out of five primaries is the key, and they followed up very well on that third victory in Florida.

But it was the winning that was key, and that was really due to McCain much more than to any campaign underneath him, as the campaign people themselves would say. They were broke. They didn't have as much money as Romney.

I do want to say a word for Mitt Romney. We're so ruthless and cruel the way we bury people when they run second. Mitt Romney was a one-term governor of Massachusetts who had had almost no involvement in politics in the '70s, '80s and up till 1994 when he ran and lost against Ted Kennedy.

He ran a pretty good campaign. You know, he is standing alive getting competitive in several big states like California and Missouri against John McCain. But Giuliani is out of the race. Thompson is out of the race. All these people, you know, sitting senators who have been around a lot longer, are out of the race.

It's an impressive performance, and actually, he's running pretty well in the states where he's put ads up in the last few days, especially Missouri and California. I wonder if he had really decided to spend even more of his kids' fortune, you know, in this last week and really tried to become the conservative alternative to McCain, and more aggressively, whether he could have made a dent. But I think it was probably ultimately going to be too little, too late.

LIASSON: Well, he wasn't going to put it all on the line, though.

KRISTOL: He was probably prudent not to, you know, waste $20 million instead of $2 million in this last week.

But looking at those polls in states like Missouri and California, I'm struck -- look, McCain is awfully impressive. He's running a terrific campaign, a terrific comeback. There is real resistance to him among a lot of Republicans, though.

I'm not sure Romney quite was willing to do what he might have done to capitalize on that resistance. But I think McCain's in awfully good shape.

WILLIAMS: Well, I think it's stubbornness. I mean, what I see is that he spent so much money, Bill. He spent $35 million of his own money. So without that kind of access to cash, he wouldn't be here.

I think Mara is exactly right. I think it looked like, you know, an assembly by package formula for his approach to the people, to the Republican voters.

And at this moment, I don't know that it's the ads even that's keeping him afloat so much as the fact that there are people who don't feel comfortable with John McCain, especially on the right.

When you look at the numbers again, the polls indicate that it's independent to moderate Republicans who have dominated here.

And what's really fascinating to me is that in Florida, you saw so many of the Hispanic voters on the Republican side go to John McCain and that the immigration issue just, you know, pushed back against Mitt Romney. For all his attempts to play -- I think to pander -- to the anti- immigration sentiments among some on the far right, it didn't work for him. It actually hurt him.

HUME: Chris, I think some of the activists on the right who are now facing the prospect of John McCain with dread in some sense have themselves to blame.

Mitt Romney really presented them a candidate who was with them on all the issues, an attractive guy, a successful businessman. I mean, on paper, Mitt Romney looked pretty good, and they all wouldn't rally to him.

They were waiting for someone to come and be Ronald Reagan, and you know, they made kind of a bet on Fred Thompson. A lot of them were for Rudy Giuliani, and so forth. And here was this guy sitting there all along who was with them on all the issues in a way that John McCain was not.

And they basically shunned him, I think, until it was too late, and they're rallying to him now, and I fear it's too late for him.

WALLACE: But, Mara, didn't the YouTube effect really hurt Romney? I mean, I think a lot of people thought that about Romney.

And then they started seeing these things from 1994 and 2002 where he had taken positions about -- you know, he didn't want to return to Reagan- Bush, and he was, you know, going to support a woman's right to choose.

I mean, that made it hard for a lot of conservatives.

LIASSON: I think it did make it hard. I think in another era, maybe he could have made that transition a little more comfortably. But yeah, I think it does make it hard, and he made no bones about it. You know, he said, "I've changed my mind." But that was a problem for some people.

Look, you know, some of this is mysterious, you know. Like Brit said, attractive guy, incredible stamina, you know, vitality on the stump, really articulate, beautiful family, clearly capable, able, run all these big organizations, but somehow or other, it just never clicked.

KRISTOL: I'm totally with Brit on this, though. I respect the conservatives who said Romney's the best we're going to get, he's with us on the issues now, I'll throw in with him early and try to make it work.

The people who are sitting around whining now, having dilly- dallied with other candidates, waited. No one was perfect. Now they're all upset that John McCain is going to be the nominee. But you know, they didn't do much to stop him. McCain beat them fair and square. And I think he will be the nominee.

LIASSON: Well, they didn't think they had to stop him. He looked like he was road kill for so long.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, he sure did.

KRISTOL: The week before Florida, to continue indulging the notion that Rudy Giuliani could stop John McCain...

WILLIAMS: It was ridiculous.

KRISTOL: If you thought John McCain was a disaster...

LIASSON: Yeah, that's true. By then, it was true.

KRISTOL: If you thought John McCain was a disaster for the country and for the party, you should have rallied behind Romney the week before Florida, not the week after.

WILLIAMS: Let me just quickly say, though, does anybody really think that Mitt Romney looks like a change agent, that he represented the idea of a new emerging Republican...

WALLACE: That's a question that is going to remain unanswered until Super Tuesday when we'll be discussing all of this for hours. Thank you, panel. See you in a couple of days.

And coming up, what a week it was, "On the Trail."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WALLACE: The campaigns in both parties got a lot clearer this week, with candidates dropping out and frontrunners starting to emerge, and we were there every step of the way, "On the Trail."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

T. KENNEDY: I feel change in the air.

(APPLAUSE)

What about you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: Our victory might not have reached landslide proportions, but it is sweet nonetheless.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I am here to thank you for your votes today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: How is it that you're the expert on my position, when my position has been very clear?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUCKABEE: This isn't a two-man race. There's another guy that would like to say down here on the far right of the stage, "Let me get in on that."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARDS: I am suspended my campaign for the Democratic nomination for the presidency.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GIULIANI: So I am very proud to endorse my friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHWARZENEGGER: He's a great American hero and an extraordinary leader.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I was friends with Hillary Clinton before we started this campaign. I will be friends with Hillary Clinton after this campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: And you know, it did take a Clinton to clean up after the first Bush. And I think it might take another one to clean up after the second Bush.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: Washington is broken. We're going to go there. We're going to fix it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO: Who have you got in the Super Bowl?

(LAUGHTER)

And I know Rudy -- obviously, you're New York.

GIULIANI: New York Giants.

MCCAIN: OK. A little straight talk. Somebody's going to have to show me how you beat the Patriots.

GIULIANI: Will you give me the points?

MCCAIN: Yes. I'll give you the points.

GIULIANI: OK.

MCCAIN: I'll give you the points. JAY LENO: Well, there you go. You heard it right there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Politics sure is an interesting business.

Now this program note. We hope you'll watch Fox News Channel Tuesday night starting at 6 p.m. Eastern with Brit and Special Report for our complete coverage of Super Tuesday.

And that's it for today. Have a great week, and we'll see you next "Fox News Sunday".

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