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January 17, 2008

Matalin; Race Debate on "Hannity & Colmes"

Hannity & Colmes

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: Welcome to HANNITY AND COLMES. Glad you're with us. I'm Sean Hannity. We get right to our top story tonight. We're just two days away from the first in the south presidential primary in South Carolina. The candidates have been criss-crossing the state while volunteers make phone calls and television ads filling the airwaves. And as was the case eight years ago, it seems to be getting really nasty.

Joining us now is Fred Thompson's campaign adviser, Mary Matalin. Mary, always good to see you.

MARY MATALIN, THOMPSON CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Hey Sean.

HANNITY: By the way, I have another debate with James coming up, Tim Russert moderating. It should be a lot of fun. I need your tips because he's got great jokes.

COLMES: Jams will win.

HANNITY: Let me first start with Mike Huckabee and Mitt Romney and John McCain on the issue -- believe it or not, it's back again in South Carolina, and that is the Confederate Flag. What is Fred Thompson's position?

MATALIN: Well, can I just back up for a moment. On all of these issues, what Fred has been doing is running an honorable campaign with lots of integrity. And I think the story of the day more than the flag and more than these state issues is the issue of campaigns that aren't being run so honorably, notably and specifically the Huckabee campaign, which has run millions across these early states of push polls distorting everyone's record, not just Fred's.

And this is not what this campaign is about. This is conservatism at the crossroads. The country is at the crossroads. It's a very unmanly thing to do. It's a very morally suspect thing to do. And Huckabee should just stop it right now. And before we talk about any issues, we should agree that we're going to be talking about those issues that are important, critical to this country for the next four years.

HANNITY: You've got your case in point out there. Let me ask you again -- I want to go back because this has now become, as it does, it seems, every four years, a pretty explosive issue in South Carolina. Mike Huckabee is saying today, and he's talking specifically about Senator McCain and Mitt Romney -- he goes you don't like people from outside the state coming in and telling you what to do with your flag. He said, in fact, if someone came to Arkansas and told us what to do with our flag, we'd tell them what to do with the flag pole. That's what we'd do.

Is Senator Thompson going to weigh in on this or not?

MATALIN: You know, I honestly don't know. There are people that would come on here without having any facts and render an opinion. In general, the Thompson philosophy is a state's rights one. And I don't know that this rises to the level of a national federal issue.

But I will go back to Huckabee. He ought to let people come and look in his state because what he's done in Arkansas is distinctly different. His record on immigration, taxes, and spending is distinctly different than what he's saying in South Carolina. Of course he wants to change the subject and talk about poll sitting. I don't even know what that means.

HANNITY: Fred in the South Carolina debate -- we were there and I asked him about it the other night, and he started arguing with me. It was kind of funny. But more importantly he went after Mike Huckabee, Governor Huckabee, and basically called him a Democrat in the debate. And I said OK, Senator McCain is often at odds with conservatives, McCain-Feingold, McCain-Kennedy, taxes, the Gang of 14. I know he sat next to him in the Senate for a long time. Why does he seem only willing to attack or go after or challenge Mike Huckabee but not Senator McCain? Senator McCain is leading there?

MATALIN: No, of course, he's been challenging -- I wouldn't call it attacking. He's been challenging each of these candidates on their issues. And specifically relative to McCain, he said he disagreed with his immigration issue. Let me say this, Fred Thompson would not have gotten in the race if John McCain was scratching the conservative itch. You listed all the things that John has not been conservative on. I would add to that, it was a tipping point for a lot of conservatives, he's now jumped on the pseudo-religious global warming bandwagon. That's just madness.

But they are friends, and if they thought John would have been able to carry the banner that could unite the party to beat the liberals in the fall, he wouldn't have jumped in the first place.

COLMES: No one is beating liberals in the fall. Hi, Mary, how are you?

MATALIN: Hey, Alan.

COLMES: Group calling itself Vietnam Veterans Against McCain has put out a leaflet accusing him of collaborating with the enemy during the years he was a POW. Our own Carl Cameron is reporting that when McCain aggressively denounced it as a smear, aides to Fred Thompson called him a whiner looking for sympathy as a victim. Is that your view, and do you know of anybody in your campaign who said that about John McCain?

MATALIN: No, you know, that's despicable. John McCain is a hero, a real hero, a big hero, a moving hero. That's a despicable tactic, and it's one that Fred Thompson never -- nothing like that has ever come out of anybody's mouth in our campaign. We all love John McCain. We just don't think he's the kind of conservative that can unite the party.

No, he's not a whiner. He's not a whiner. He's a hero.

COLMES: Fred Thompson was on HANNITY AND COLMES a couple of years ago. In fact, I think it was back in 2004, and he said that getting illegal trespassers out of the country is, quote, not going to happen. The solution is to work out a deal where they can have some aspirations for citizenship, but that we shouldn't make it easy so it's not unfair to other aliens working to get in. That sounds like a pro-amnesty position, very close to the position John McCain has.

MATALIN: Goodness gracious, Alan. What Fred has put out has been the only practical solution on immigration. It's a solution by attrition. We're not going to deport 12 million people, but we have to rigorously enforce what's on the books, and we have to cease with these magnet problems, the likes that Huckabee ran in his state. The state was a virtual magnet for illegal immigrants, another flip-flop on Huckabee's part. And everyone's moved to the Thompson position of securing the borders first and enforcing the law secondly.

COLMES: You're going after Huckabee here. Look, also, one other item I want to bring up, which is the Bush economy, the Bush/Cheney recession, which seems to be happening. Ben Bernanke is basically saying to Chuck Schumer he believes that's exactly what's going on, and you've got Hillary Clinton proposing a 70 billion dollar economic stimulus package that involves money for people, poor, and middle class, to help pay their energy bills and providing money, direct tax rebates to working and middle class families.

What is Fred Thompson's plan to deal with what some perceive as a coming recession, if it's not here already?

MATALIN: Yes, well, even Nancy Pelosi is refusing to use the R word. There's certain agreement that there will be a slowdown. To call it recession would accelerate that process. It's not a good thing to be saying. What Fred has said today was this is not the time for quick sound bites and snap political nonsense. We need sound minds and a long-term strategy on this. But I love to hear Democrats talking about tax cuts, Alan. They're obviously not listening to you.

COLMES: For the middle class, not for the wealthy, Mary, for people making under six figures.

HANNITY: How about everybody? .

COLMES: Rich already go theirs with Bush. That doesn't seem to be helping the economy very much.

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: It is, Alan. The economy is phenomenal. Where have you been living?

COLMES: Let's you and I go at it for the next 45 minutes.

MATALIN: Thanks for having me, guys.

HANNITY: Thank you, Mary.

COLMES: Rivals Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton appear to have moved past their recent racial sparring. Not everybody is convinced of that though, that the issue has really been laid to rest. We'll tell you why coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: On Tuesday's Democratic debate, Clinton and Obama appeared to bury the hatchet in their recent race war. Can the Obama campaign forgive Clinton supporter and BET founder Robert Johnson for the comment he made on Sunday?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I am, frankly, insulted that the Obama campaign would imply that we are so stupid that we would think Hillary and Bill Clinton, who have been deeply and emotionally involved in black issues, when Barack Obama was doing something in the neighborhood that I won't say what he was doing, but he said it in his book.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: Today, Johnson issued a formal apology, writing, quote, "in my zeal to support Senator Clinton, I made some very inappropriate remarks for which I am truly sorry. I hope that you will accept this apology."

Joining us now is the author of "The Seven Guaranteed Steps to Spiritual Family and Financial Success," Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson, and Temple University Professor Dr. Marc Lamont Hill.

And Jesse, I think people can misspeak, speak out of turn and then come forward and say look, I shouldn't have said it. It was my zeal. I was excited. And have an opportunity to revisit your remark and say here's what I really meant to say? Do you agree with that?

REV JESSE LEE PETERSON, BONDINFO.ORG: I agree, Alan, and it's OK to accept an apology. But it's not Barack Obama who thinks that black liberals are stupid. It's Bill and Hillary Clinton.

COLMES: When did they say that? I must have missed that,

PETERSON: Let me tell you this, I said during the New Hampshire primary, when it appeared that Hillary Clinton may lose, that once she left there, she and Bill were going to start -- create a race issue, between black liberals and white liberals. And the reason for that -- and then they're going to step back and pretend that they had nothing to do with it --

COLMES: According to whom.

PETERSON: Let me say this and then I'll answer the question; the reason they're doing that is because a lot of white liberals are supporting Barack Obama. And I think we all would agree that Bill and Hillary Clinton love power more than anything else on Earth and --

COLMES: You're making a bunch of charges here. Who's saying this?

(CROSS TALK)

PETERSON: Let me finish and then you will see. They also know -- Bill and Hillary know how to -- they know how to manipulate the hearts and minds of black liberals. So what they want is to get the white liberals to vote for them, a few blacks. And once Hillary is nominated to represent the Democratic party, now she's up against a Republican, and all she has to do is go into the black church, pretend that she's -- she knows Jesus, hoop and holler --

COLMES: You know what's in her heart. Do you know -- hold on, reverend, we've only got a short time. You're making a whole speech. You're making unfounded accusations about what you think the Clintons would do or would have done. Let me show you what Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are actually saying to and about each other.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think that Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton have historically and consistently been on the right side of civil right issues. They care about the African-American community and they care about all Americans. They want to see equal rights and equal justice in this country.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I certainly have the highest regard for both Senator Obama and Senator Edwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: Dr. Hill, what they're trying to do on the right is divide and conquer and try to make believe there's some kind of race or gender war going on that isn't happening.

DR. MARC LAMONT HILL, TEMPLE UNIVERSITY: Well, Alan, on some level, of course, the right strategy has always been to divide and conquer. At the same time, we do have to take seriously the way in which the Clinton campaign has managed to manipulate race and the racial sensibilities of black people from 1992 until 2008.

I don't necessarily agree with Jesse Lee's point all the way through, but we certainly have to understand that the Clinton campaign -- it's in their best interest to say they're above this racial war.

HANNITY: We've got to keep looking at the history here. Reverend Peterson, Dr. Hill, good to see you both. Thanks for being with us. But Jesse Lee, this is now a patter; the surrogates of the Clintons, and that means Bob Kerrey, that means the former governor of New Hampshire's husband, that means the founder of BET, that means Charlie Rangel, they've all come out and made these -- taken these shots at Barack Obama, drug use, suggested drug dealing, Barack Hussein Obama, madrassa; all this stuff has been dropped. And then they apologize, but it's already gotten out there.

And then they get to keep their hands clean. This is typical Clinton smear 101, isn't it?

PETERSON: That's how they operate. They're always behind the scene pretending that they're not manipulating the situation when they really are. And that's what is happening. And I have to say, I don't support either one, Barack or Hillary. I think they're both bad for our country.

HILL: There's a surprise.

PETERSON: But because black Americans -- liberal blacks have been on the plantation of the Democratic party for so long, if anyone knows how to manipulate their mind, it's Bill and Hillary.

HANNITY: I want to ask you as a pastor -- then we'll allow Dr. Hill to respond to this. This is the issue of Barack Obama's pastor, and his adherence to what he calls the black value system. I asked him about it on this very show. You know, he asked his congregation to commit themselves to adherence to the black work ethic, the black family, the black value system, acquire skills available to the black community, strengthen and support black institutions, pledge allegiance to the black leadership who have embraced the black value system, and then we found out this week that he also gave an award and said about Louis Farrakhan, a racist and anti- semite, that this is a man who truly epitomized greatness.

Now, if any Republican associated themselves with an anti-semite racist, and if you replaced the word black with white and went to that type of church, wouldn't that be a huge deal in this campaign, reverend?

PETERSON: They would not allow it to happen. There's a double standard in America today. Liberal blacks can do and say whatever they want and get away with it. We all know that Reverend Jeremiah Wright Jr. is a racist. Anyone that supports Farrakhan -- and I also have to say real fast is that God -- if you're born again of the nature of God, then you're of the spirit, not of the color.

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: Mar, let me ask you this. Barack Obama's pastor says he truly -- what did he say, truly epitomized greatness, about a racist and anti-semite, Farrakhan, and then he talks about the black value system. Why not the Christian value system?

HILL: Well, first of all, to say that if that happened to a Republican, it would be different, is untrue. How many Republican presidents have embraced Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, other --

HANNITY: They're not racists and anti-Semites, sir. That's not the same as --

(CROSS TALK)

HILL: They're racist. They're homophobic.

HANNITY: No they're not racist. Jerry Fallwell is not a racist. That's a despicable comment, and it's not true.

HILL: I find it to be true.

HANNITY: You find it to be true, but you cannot quote on this program one thing that would back that up.

HILL: We can certainly say that Jerry Fallwell is homophobic. The bigger issue here is Jeremiah Wright's church promotes black self- determination.

PETERSON: There's no such thing. Are you talking about ghetto values?

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: We've got to run.

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: I guarantee you we've not heard the end of this issue.

HILL: You haven't heard me at all.

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