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January 22, 2008

Jerry Brown, Newt Gingrich on "Hannity & Colmes"

Hannity & Colmes

HANNITY: Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich will join us later in the show with more on this big showdown. But joining us now with more, California Attorney General, former presidential candidate Jerry Brown, and also joining -- our good friend, former Congressman John Kasich is with us. Guys, welcome back to the program.

Jerry, I know it's a rough and tumble sport, Jerry Brown, what this is all about here. I didn't know that Wal-Mart was an enemy of the American people. I didn't know that Reagan, who gave us the longest period of peace-time economic growth in history and ended the Cold War, was such a demonized figure. Is that the new hard left of your party?

JERRY BROWN, CA ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, there are some folks in the Democratic party that are concerned about Wal-Mart, and, of course, there's a lot of people that think that Reagan added to inequality while doing some other things for the economy.

HANNITY: You mean 21 million new jobs that he was creating, doubling the income for the federal government, longest peace-time -- period of peace-time economic growth in history. Those were awful moments in history, weren't they?

BROWN: I don't want to go back over history. I think we're looking at the debate and how it is. I think some of those points didn't score that well between Barack and Hillary. They were getting into nits and nats. One is on the board of Wal-Mart. The other supposedly represented a slum lord. I think those are small points. I think they fall flat. I think both of them were at their best, Hillary when she talked about health care, Obama when he responded -- he really presented a very human and very intelligent person.

So I think you've got to have clash, that's what you do in primaries. I do think they're going to have to keep it at a higher level, and what I saw that was missing is; what is their conception of America different than President Bush. That's really what they've got to lay out.

HANNITY: I've got to be honest. Congressman Kasich, welcome back. It's always good to see you. I thought this was a depressing debate. I hear contempt for capitalism. I think -- just a compulsive belief that the government is the answer to all the problems in our day and in our time. I didn't see that they like capitalism. I didn't see that they have respect for private property rights. I think they believe the government can solve every problem imaginable, and weakness in the compelling issue of our time, the war on terror. Did you see it the same way?

JOHN KASICH, FMR OH CONGRESSMAN: Sean, for them to attack Ronald Reagan is like Republicans attacking Harry Truman. It's just pretty stupid because the American people love Ronald Reagan. And, frankly, those Reagan Democrats, they're the ones that Reagan spoke to who crossed over and voted Republican. They ought to keep them in mind because if they lose those folks, they're in big trouble.

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: Isn't that evidence that that party's been coopted by the Daily Cooks and MoveOn.org.

KASICH: That debate last night was far left. Trashing Wal-Mart, I didn't get the whole thing when so much of the country goes there. Here's another interesting thing, Sean, you've got Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama blasting Republicans for what we did in the last ten or 15 years, which was to reform welfare and balance the budget. And guess who signed the bills? Bill Clinton was the president. He's tried to take credit for it, and now they're trying to trash the Republicans, so I guess in that sense, Hillary's even trashing her own husband.

HANNITY: And you were responsible for that budget plan seven years, Congressional Budget Office numbers, real numbers there.

KASICH: First balanced budget since we were on the moon, Sean, and for them to say we had no new ideas -- Barack actually said it. He said Republicans were setting the agenda, that they had changed things in this country. And where his mistake was was to back off. Give Ronald Reagan his due. Give Franklin Roosevelt his due. He changed the country.

ALAN COLMES, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: First of all, Reagan left us with the biggest deficits and debt up until that time. And Jerry Brown, the real issue is that Barack Obama wasn't praising the policies of Ronald Reagan; he wasn't praising his ability to appeal to Democrats and reach across party lines. It was a conceptual praise, not a praise specifically to what Reagan stood for on the issues or ideology.

BROWN: That's a nuance that the political debate doesn't assimilate very well. Look, here's the point I would make -- we just heard this praise by the Republicans, everything is good. The fact of the matter is both parties are flawed, and America -- this is really the question. We've never been so indebted. The country, with trade deficits, financial -- and then we've got the credit cards and the sub prime mortgage. Look, we've got a big problem out there, and what I'd like to hear from the candidates is what is the Democratic view? What is the difference of either Obama or John Edwards or Hillary, how do they see the world differently than what's going on over on the Republican side?

And I think a lot of that little back and forth and it nits and nats; I don't think that takes you very far and it burns up a lot --

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: Republicans have big government, they want to put Democracy every place in the world, bigger military, bigger investment in the military industrial complex; we want to go and solve every problem in every dictatorship in the world. That's bigger government. That's more government involvement. That's big tax payer spending. And that's what the Republicans have wanted to do. John?

KASICH: Alan, how can you say the Republicans didn't have any ideas when we took Bill Clinton kicking and screaming to a balanced budget, paid down the largest amount of debt in the history of the country.

COLMES: Bill Clinton did that. He triangulated.

KASICH: Wait a minute, did they like what happened in the last ten or 15 years or don't they? They said they didn't. Frankly, that was the hallmark of it. Alan, here's what happened last night. There's so much animosity --

(CROSS TALK)

KASICH: Let me finish, Jerry. There's so much animosity last night, the Democrats are going to take a chance on blowing this thing. Frankly, the independent voters are looking their way, but that kind of nasty name- calling -- and if that party can't heal, they've got big problems.

COLMES: I agree with you, but on the issues Democrats win. Jerry Brown, people don't want to see Democrats at each other's throats. I agree with what John just said, in terms of the independent voter, people who want a comfort level with a candidate, which you don't have if they're really going at each other for the jugular.

BROWN: Let me just tell you something. I've been in presidential debates. I debated Clinton several times. And it isn't always so easy to be dignified and thoughtful and measured. So these kind of hyper charges, that happens. So this is just one debate. They'll make some more mistakes. They'll get their footing as they go along.

I think the real question is -- you may say everything is wonderful in America. But the American people aren't saying that. We have -- the world economy is quite shaky. The stock markets in many places were dropping 10 percent over the last two days. I think we do want to hear a different vision.

KASICH: They're going to steal victory -- they're going to steal defeat out of the jaws of victory.

BROWN: We've got a country that's in deep trouble. We're financially over-extended. We're militarily over-extended.

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: Coming up, Hillary Clinton gets herself a key endorsement, but her critics are punching holes in her new supporter, saying his past racial comments make him quite questionable. Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson will respond to the Calvin Butts endorsement, coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Senator Obama, it is very difficult having a straight up debate with you because you never take responsibility for any vote, and that has been a pattern. You in the -- now, wait a minute. In the Illinois state legislature --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COLMES: Hillary Clinton recently secured the support of influential New York City pastor Calvin Butts, and now her rivals want to discredit Butts by highlighting racially insensitive remarks he once made to Rudy Giuliani back in the year 2000.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. CALVIN BUTTS, CLINTON SUPPORTER: You want to maintain the status quo, and you want a few Negroes to help you do it. Go to hell, white man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: So is Clinton aligning herself with a man that many would label a racist? With us now is the Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson. I'm so tired if every time somebody associated with any candidate says something ten years ago, it becomes an issue in the campaign. First of all, they reconciled. It was Cardinal O'Connor who, at St. Patrick's Cathedral, had a reconciliation ceremony, where Giuliani and Butts, just a couple of years after that, talked, shook hands, made up. It's not an issue. This happened on the heels of the Amadou Diallo case in New York City, where a black guy was killed by white officers.

So context is very important here.

REV. JESSE LEE PETERSON, REVEREND: The problem, Alan, there's a double standard in America. Black Democrats are allowed to be racists.

COLMES: Are you calling him a racist?

PETERSON: Yes.

COLMES: Why is he a racist?

PETERSON: Because had a white Republican said that about a black man, then they would be burning down the country.

(CROSS TALK)

PETERSON: Look at Al Sharpton. Any time a white man says something - - or Jesse Jackson -- they're on them. White Republican conservatives are not allowed to speak up. But because these people are black people, black Democrats, they're allowed to get away with it. I interview these black preachers all the time on my radio show, and my listeners are surprised at three quick things. One is how racist they are. They're unable to tell the truth. And most of them are not called by god, but by money. And so my audiences are surprised.

COLMES: Jesse Lee, I think we're too quick to, in a knee jerk way, just call somebody a racist because of one moment in their life, one thing they said once. I think if there's a pattern of those kinds of statements, that's one thing. But if you say one thing once in the heat of a moment, and then you apologize and reconcile with the person, why can't --

PETERSON: Are you referring to the Democrats?

COLMES: Whoever.

(CROSS TALK)

COLMES: I don't care about as a Republican or Democrat. I think if you say something stupid and you -- in the heat of a moment -- and you can then apologize and reconcile with the person to whom you said it, you ought to be forgiven. Isn't Christian forgiveness the very thing you talk about?

PETERSON: Absolutely. It should happen that way.

COLMES: Why can't you -- Forget the Democrat and Republican.

PETERSON: I forgive the guy. I don't hold it against him.

COLMES: No, you're calling him a racist.

PETERSON: My point is that he is a racist. If a white man said the same thing --

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: It's amazing to me. Let's change the word white, go to hell white man, and if anybody said that and put the word black for white, what would happen in this country?

PETERSON: They would burn it down.

HANNITY: There would be an outcry.

PETERSON: They want his head on a platter.

HANNITY: Trent Lott -- at a 100th birthday of Strom Thurmond, we would have been better off if you were elected president. What happened to Trent Lott?

PETERSON: They got rid of him. They went after him. They embarrassed him on BET. They went after him like no one else, and it's amazing how they were able to get away with that.

HANNITY: Reverend Sharpton has made multiple statements over the course of his career that have been over the top and out of line. Jesse Jackson has. Louis Farrakhan is an outright racist and anti-semite, based on the things he's said over the years, as far as I'm concerned. Democrats can have Robert Byrd as a leader in the Senate. Why does the double standard exist? How do you change that?

PETERSON: Good point. Good question. The reason that the double standard exists is because white Americans are afraid. They're afraid of being called a racist. And any time you're afraid, your enemy will overtake you. It's never going to change. I've given white folks permission to start speaking up. I'm a black American. I love my country. I love what's right. And I know that it's only the truth that's going to bring on a change. And until that happens, it's going to continue.

HANNITY: You see, if you're a radio host or a television host and you say something that's deemed inappropriate -- for example, where did any of the people that went off Don Imus -- why didn't they go after Calvin Butts by saying, go to hell white man.

PETERSON: Because he's black. I'm telling you, because he's black, and there's a double standard. White Americans are afraid. Look at Jeremiah Wright. This guy's daughter gave an award to Louis Farrakhan. Louis Farrakhan is a racist, and we all know it. But because they're black and a Democrat, they are allowed to get away with it. Jeremiah Wright, for example -- if a white preacher, including the KKK, espouses so called white values --

Remember at one time the KKK was doing that. They were like, we're for white people, we're --

(CROSS TALK)

PETERSON: They got rid of those folks. But when it happened with black Democrats, they're allowed to do it.

HANNITY: How could you have that in your heart, those words, go to hell, white man, if you didn't have racial antipathy?

PETERSON: That's what it's all about. They hate white Americans. They are racist toward white Americans, no thanks to the so-called civil rights leaders. We just celebrated Dr. King's birthday last night.

(CROSS TALK)

PETERSON: Great speech by the way.

HANNITY: Thank you.

PETERSON: Dr. King's primary message was forgiveness. He said, we have to overcome our enemies. But when he was assassinated, Jackson and the others, so-called civil rights leaders, the traitors, took the message of love and forgiveness and turned it to hate for their own personal gain.

HANNITY: We usually see you from Los Angeles. Welcome to New York.

PETERSON: It's good to be here.

COLMES: Forgive Calvin Butts, as long as you're talking about forgiveness.

(CROSS TALK)

HANNITY: Coming up, Rudy Giuliani hoping for a victory in the Sunshine State. Can his Florida strategy shake up an already crowded field? That answer and much more. Newt Gingrich also coming up next, straight ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Ronald Reagan was a transformative political figure because he was able to get Democrats to vote against their economic interest to form a majority to push through their agenda, an agenda that I objected to. Because, while I was working on those streets, watching those folks see their jobs shift over seas, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on the board of Wal-Mart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani finds himself in the political fight of his life as he heads into Tuesday's Florida primary -- that's one week from tonight -- with no wins under his belt yet. The Giuliani camp believes a Florida win could springboard their candidate into a very strong Super Tuesday showing, and create a serious shake-up in the GOP field. Joining us now, Missouri Senator, Giuliani supporter Kit Bond is with us. Good to see you again. Welcome back to the program.

SEN. KIT BOND (R), MISSOURI: Hi, thank you so much, Sean, good to be with you.

HANNITY: I don't even know if we can make anything out of the polls right now in Florida for this reason; Senator Fred Thompson got out of the race today, and Mike Huckabee's given every indication that he's not going to compete in Florida. A, he doesn't have the resources, and it's a winner take all state and he's looking forward to Super Tuesday. What does that mean if you basically have Rudy, Romney, and McCain there?

BOND: I think that plays to the strategy of the Giuliani campaign. Rudy Giuliani knew that there were going to be a tremendous number of delegates chosen in Florida, on February 5, and he saved up, and he's been campaigning in Florida. He's been going hand over hand. I was down there with him two days this past week. He's getting great response.

And others were campaigning in other states. So he hasn't gotten the media coverage nationally because he's been in Florida, and I believe that Florida is the thing that not only can but will propel him into first place in the race.

HANNITY: We have a week from tonight. We'll know the answer. He's either going to be declared a genius, or this will be viewed as a strategic mistake. Does he have to win the state to remain viable for the following Tuesday, which is two weeks from tonight, for Super Tuesday?

BOND: Well, I'm involved trying to make sure that my state of Missouri goes for Rudy. And I can tell you, it will be a whole lot easier if he wins Florida. But we're going to continue to fight hard if he runs a good close second, because I think, overwhelmingly, as I look at the candidates -- and I know them. And I know some of them better than others. And I think Rudy Giuliani not only is our best candidate, but he'd make the best president.

HANNITY: He certainly has strong leadership skills. There are a lot of New Yorkers that live down in Florida. I would think that would be a natural advantage for him. His campaigning there longer than anybody else would be a natural advantage for him. If we examine Mike Huckabee apparently not competing in Florida and Senator Fred Thompson bowing out of the race today, the constituencies for both of those candidates, who do you think they would be more likely to support and why?

BOND: It's tough to say. The primaries have been so fluid. The polls have been wrong. And certainly the pundits have been wrong. And I have -- I'm not an expert on Florida. But I think people who want executive leadership, who want competence and ability to manage things would move clearly to Rudy, and I don't -- excuse me, go ahead.

COLMES: It's Alan Colmes. Welcome. We only have a moment left here. Good to have you back with us. Let's be realistic here. The Marist poll in New York has McCain beating Giuliani by about ten points. That's New York, Rudy's home turf. The Real Clear Politics average of polls in Florida has McCain beating Giuliani 23.3 to 20.0. When you look at enough polls, where they all pretty much same the same thing, don't you have to be realistic about what his chances are at this point?

BOND: I think I'm realistic based on the kind of campaign he's running. And that's one where he's getting out and appealing to Florida voters. When I was down there, I had a great response. As far as those polls, I'd rather trust the weatherman on predicting what the weather's going to be on Tuesday next than to predict -- than to depend upon a poll. Clearly he's got a tough road to hoe. There's no question about that.

COLMES: It's a risky strategy, isn't it?

BOND: It certainly is, but we hope it's a winning strategy. We'll find out next Tuesday night.

COLMES: The polls are tightening in New Jersey. They're tightening in Connecticut. He's losing in New York. That signals problems for Rudy Giuliani.

BOND: A win in Florida cures all those problems, Alan, and that's what we're looking for. And it sure helps us in Missouri.

COLMES: All right, senator. We thank you very much for being with us tonight. Thank you for your time.

Coming up, will Florida's primary really turn one of these Republican candidates into a front-runner? Newt Gingrich will handicap the field, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What you just repeated today is -- just repeated here today is patently -- wait. Hillary, you just spoke.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I did not say anything about Ronald Reagan. You talked about admiring Ronald Reagan.

OBAMA: You just spoke...

H. CLINTON: I didn't talk about Ronald Reagan.

OBAMA: We just had the tape. You just said that I complimented the Republican ideas. That is not true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLMES: That was another clip of the fighting between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton in last night's Democratic debate. Joining us with reaction, author of the book "Real Change," former speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich.

We had real change last night, Mr. Speaker, a real debate with people who had some very strong disagreements. How do you think that turned out?

NEWT GINGRICH, AUTHOR, "REAL CHANGE": Well, I think that Senator Obama did a very good job of standing up for what he believes in, but I think he has the problem that the Clintons are gradually crowding him into a corner. And it will be very interesting to see whether or not he can break out. Because if they can reduce him to being just another politician, I think she beats him just by sheer muscle and the size of the Clinton machine.

And so, in some ways, getting into kind of a verbal wrestling match, while it shows he can stand up to her, also reduces him to being just a politician. So I'm not so sure that the Clintons weren't quite satisfied with that exchange.

COLMES: Don't you want to see two very strong personalities, which is what we saw? You might like the rhetoric. I think it is discomfort level, seeing, as a Democrat, seeing two Democrats go at it like that. I think it's discomforting.

But at least here's someone who stands up to Hillary Clinton. She stood up to him. It was a good, evenly matched, it seems, give and take.

GINGRICH: Yes. But here's -- here's the challenge, Alan. Everybody in the political world finds all this stuff fascinating. But if you're a normal American worried about the economy, worried about your family, worried about health care, worried about educating your children, you just watched two politicians go at each other over stuff that is political.

Telling the world that the Clintons are lying about something is a profession that has gone on now at least since 1980, and it seems to have almost no effect on their getting elected. And it didn't tell me anything about what either one of them would have done to fix America or to move the country forward.

So I think, in a sense, watching two strong personalities get involved in a mud fight diminishes the process of picking a president. It doesn't expand it.

COLMES: Who came out better?

GINGRICH: I have no idea. I think that the Clintons are deliberately maneuvering Barack Obama into reducing him to being a normal politician. I think they're quite prepared -- their theory is if this is going to be a fight that's going to be fought in the mud, they'll win it because they fight in mud fights. So if they can drag him down to fight them on their level, even if he fights well, he ceases to be the kind of golden optimistic figure of a better future.

COLMES: You're saying it's calculated on the part of the Clintons to be forceful and make him be dragged down in the mud. But didn't he have a bone to pick with them in terms of things he -- they had said about them? And didn't he have a reason to be as aggressive as he was, without the Clintons interfering in that?

GINGRICH: Sure, but the problem is, this is like watching a game where the one side is very good at getting the other side to commit a foul, and then they get to shoot the free throw because they got the other side to foul them.

The Clintons are setting up fights, starting with President Clinton describing a fairytale, and they've been deliberately setting up fights with, I think, Senator Clinton's references to Martin Luther King Jr. versus Lyndon Johnson. And they are taunting Obama down to their level, because they can beat him if it's just a fight between three ambitious politicians.

HANNITY: Hey...

GINGRICH: He's dangerous if he's up here as a national figure of hope.

HANNITY: I've got to tell you something, Mr. Speaker, that if that is the tactics and the strategy that's being employed by the Clintons, then in many ways it's working.

It raises this question, then. Assuming here that you're right, that this is all part of a Clinton strategy to turn him into a politician and drag him into the battle with her, knowing that they have a far superior team behind her to support, how then, strategically, do you defend against that? She gets to attack you; you don't ever get to respond? You can't -- what's the best way to handle it?

GINGRICH: I think that Senator Obama has to appeal to the country on the grounds that he offers a better future; he offers a future of honesty; he offers a future of real change; and he has to -- he has to take it up to a very high level, and then take the risk that that will win or lose.

HANNITY: Yes.

GINGRICH: But I think for him to get down in a mud fight with the Clintons is a guaranteed way for his campaign to lose.

HANNITY: Here was this debate taking place on Martin Luther King Day, and the day before, Hillary Clinton spent time seeking the endorsement of a controversial New York pastor we were discussing earlier, who literally used the phrase not that long ago, a few years back, "Go to hell, white man."

And yet, I bet beyond this program, very few people are aware of that. Could you imagine if this was a Republican candidate what the reaction would be today?

GINGRICH: Sure. Look, if that had been a white supremacist saying the same thing in reverse about African-Americans, they would, of course, have been totally unacceptable, driven out of polite society, but again, you're dealing with the world as it really is, not the world as we wish it would be.

And I think what's formidable -- this is a conversation you and I have had, Sean, now for a year and a half. You're watching the Clintons try to do something no one in American history succeeded in doing: muscle their way into a second eight years, which would mean that they would actually outrank Franklin Delano Roosevelt in time in office, and they're doing it methodically, ruthlessly, and with enormous energy.

HANNITY: Well, then it goes back...

GINGRICH: I find it very formidable.

HANNITY: Well, I agree with you, and I don't have any doubt that, in the end, that she will be the nominee for the party. But then that raises on the Republican side not only who ultimately becomes the nominee, but the strategies that they will employ to combat this.

I mean, if you attack her, you're attacking her because she's a woman. If they taunt you, to use your phrase, and you respond, you're just another politician.

But they get a pass all the way across the board, including aligning themselves with people that are telling, quote, "white people" to go to hell. It seems like this is not an even playing field here, and you've got to think on multiple strategies and multiple levels here how to combat this. I find that pretty stunning.

GINGRICH: It is. But it's not an even playing field. This is a playing field weighted very heavily towards the left, with the left-wing news media and the left-wing academic community setting the terms of what fairness is, and it ain't fair if you're conservative.

COLMES: Oh, my God. The left-wing news media. I am the left-wing news media, by the way. Thank you for noticing.

We're going to come right back with Newt Gingrich in a moment.

We first check in with Greta Van Susteren, here to tell us what's coming up right after "Hannity and Colmes."

Hi, Greta.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST, "ON THE RECORD": Good evening, Alan.

Disturbing and breaking news out of Hollywood tonight. One of the big stars dead. His father speaks out from Australia tonight. The viewers will hear that.

As well as there's new information about Sergeant Drew Peterson. Is he dating?

That and much more. Back to you.

HANNITY: And coming up next, more with former speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, right after the break, as we continue looking ahead to Florida and the primary one week from today -- two weeks from today, Super Tuesday.

And then the Clinton campaign advisor Lanny Davis responds. He's a huge, big, unbelievably big Hillary supporter. Almost as big as Alan.

COLMES: Thank you very much.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: And we continue now with the author of the brand-new book, "Real Change." Former speaker of the house, Newt Gingrich, is with us.

Congratulations, by the way, another big-selling book for you, Mr. Speaker.

All right. Let's go to the Republican side. Fred Thompson gets out, Mike Huckabee suggesting he's probably not going to compete in Florida, because it's a winner-take-all state.

Add to that you don't have the independent vote factor in Florida; it's winner take all. Now, you've got Rudy, Romney, and McCain competing. What happens in Florida, and can it reconfigure all this?

GINGRICH: Well, clearly, it can reconfigure everything because it is still such a wide-open race. You're gradually seeing people eliminated such as Senator Thompson today.

I think Governor Huckabee now has to pick his shots very carefully because he has limited resources. And I think, because it's a winner-take- all state, he's probably right not to spend time and money in a place where he's clearly not going to be the winner. But there are a lot of states coming up on Super Tuesday where, if he focuses, he might, in fact, well win those states.

HANNITY: Right.

GINGRICH: I think that the question -- the real question in my mind, if you assume that the Thompson vote is going to look for somebody to go to, and if you assume that some of the Huckabee vote will now drift somewhere, who's the most likely to get it?

As an analyst, my hunch is Governor Romney is, but I think it's still up in the air a little bit. I did see one Rasmussen poll that showed Romney ahead now by 25 to 20 for McCain and 19 for...

HANNITY: For Giuliani. And there was one strategic vision poll that had -- had Senator McCain up by a decent amount. But if you look at the real clear political average, it is -- it is too close to call here.

Rudy, in your opinion, does he have to win Florida? Do you believe he can win Florida? And if not -- and one other question, how does -- it seems Senator McCain has a big problem with conservatives, and we've been over the list of issues. How does he overcome that?

GINGRICH: Well, I think that there's a -- there's a couple of different questions there, Sean.

First of all, I was told by some folks who have been watching the Giuliani campaign that they claim to have a very good turnout mechanism for absentee ballots, and that they've already gotten over 40,000 absentee ballots that they've identified that are already in the box.

Senator -- I think Mayor Giuliani has to come in either first or a very, very close second. If he comes in third, and particularly if he comes in a bad third, he's in real trouble on Super Tuesday. He's staked everything now for two months on Florida, and guess what? Now we're at Florida, and everything's staked in Florida, as he said it would be.

In Senator McCain's case he's got to make a couple of straight forward appeals. He is a veteran. He has served this country honorably. He has a military background. He is a deep fiscal conservative on the spending side, and I think he's got to make those kind of appeals and accept the fact that the institutional conservative movement deeply dislikes him, but hope that in the end, if he becomes the nominee, that compared with Senator Clinton or Obama, they will all find him dramatically more acceptable in terms of virtually every aspect of government life.

COLMES: Mr. Speaker, I want to go back to something you said in the last segment. You said another Clinton administration would be like FDR. FDR was one person. Hillary Clinton, does she not have the right to be a separate person than her husband? To be accepted as a separate individual?

GINGRICH: Sure.

COLMES: We had two presidents named George Bush. Do we have now 16 years worth of Bushes or 12 years worth of Bushes violating the 22nd Amendment?

GINGRICH: Well, first, I didn't say it was violating.

COLMES: I know.

GINGRICH: Look, there's a big difference. You did not see father Bush crisscross the country whining and beating up on George W. Bush's opponents in 200.

You've seen President Clinton campaigning as energetically as his wife. This is clearly a team effort. They clearly are going to share the presidency in some format. It doesn't mean she won't be president. It doesn't mean that she'll be a strong president.

But anybody who thinks that President Bill Clinton is not going to have a major role is just kidding themselves.

COLMES: Well, husbands and wives have the right to campaign for each other. Every campaign does it with their spouse.

GINGRICH: As a good liberal...

COLMES: Thank you.

GINGRICH: ... you know the reverence that liberals had for Eleanor Roosevelt as first lady. So if you take Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt, who together tried to shape America for over 12 years, the longest period any family's ever that, you now have potentially president and President Clinton shaping America for 12 to 16 years.

All I'm suggesting is this is one of the most audacious bids for power that we've ever seen. This is not Chelsea running. George W. Bush is the equivalent of Chelsea.

COLMES: Some would say that.

GINGRICH: You know, I'm just saying. This is the direct -- this is the spouse running to create a system. And then the truth I think everybody agrees is, by the way, if there wasn't that amendment, Bill Clinton would be running.

COLMES: And probably wining, and a lot of people wouldn't mind going back to the way things were when he was president, and you happened to be speaker of the house, by the way.

Thank you very much for being with us tonight.

GINGRICH: Good to be with you.

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