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June 28, 2007

Interviews with Sens. Voinovich, Sessions, Rep. Pence

Hannity & Colmes

COLMES: Welcome to "Hannity & Colmes." I'm Alan Colmes.

We get right to our top story tonight. The immigration deal is dead once and for all. A second cloture vote failed today, as angry conservatives even shut down the phone system on Capitol Hill by flooding Senate offices with angry phone calls. It now appears the issue is dead until after the 2008 election.

Joining us tonight is a man who played a key role in sinking the troubled legislation, Alabama Republican Senator Jeff Sessions.

Senator, welcome back to "Hannity & Colmes." By the way, I know conservatives and certainly those who listen to talk radio and Sean and Rush taking credit for sinking this...

SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: Whoa, whoa, I give the credit to the American people, and they're not angry. They're passionate. Big difference.

COLMES: I'll give you your chance in a moment.

HANNITY: Well, you mentioned me. I'm responding.

COLMES: You're mentioned everywhere, even David Obey. But, look, the fact is that weren't liberals also opposed to this? Aren't Democrats? I mean, this had something for everybody to hate, didn't it?

SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: Well, it was true. We got calls from people who traditionally voted Democrat, no doubt about it. People were upset about it. People's livelihoods were being threatened. They had examples of how their wages had fallen.

And people were not scripted. They were calling in by the thousands on their own motion, expressing their own feelings. It was very unusual and really unprecedented, and the sergeant at arms said the whole system had to be shut down for a while.

COLMES: I've got to wonder if the Senate system has got to change, because this is hard to understand. The only way this could have passed would be if all the amendments were defeated, and then they basically ended debate. It sounds very arcane and hard to understand, the rules of the Senate that led to the defeat of this bill. Is there any way that that can be explained in a way that an average person can understand?

SESSIONS: Well, I would explain it this way, and I think this is a fair explanation. The leadership, with Republican assistance -- some Republicans -- they got together and planned a strategy to minimize the amount of debate to the absolute minimum, to select a series of amendments that would be put within one amendment and then would later be split, the so-called clay pigeon, and then not to allow any other amendments. So they would pick only the amendments that would be voted on, and they selected those in ways to try to gain votes.

COLMES: But here's what interesting to me, as someone...

SESSIONS: And so it just failed today. It collapsed, beginning last night, and the ultimate decision came today.

COLMES: As someone on the other side of the aisle from you in terms of issues and where I stand on it and why I'm against it, if you go issue by issue on the polls that were taken, a FOX News-Opinion Dynamics poll, "Do you favor or oppose giving illegal immigrants who pay taxes and obey the law a second chance to stay in the U.S.?" 67 say that they do. "Los Angeles Times"-Bloomberg went through all the issues having to do with what you would call amnesty, and a huge percentage, 63 percent, approve that part of the bill.

So how do you explain the fact that so many people claim they object to that? Most of the American public wants a pathway to citizenship, according to almost every poll I've seen.

SESSIONS: Well, I'm not sure exactly how those polls come out, but I would just say this to you: I do not believe that every person that came into our country illegally ought to be put on a path to citizenship. That's pretty basic.

On to the bill, everybody that arrived in our country, even after we called out the National Guard, at least before January 1st of this year, would be put on a path to guaranteed citizenship. I don't think that's necessary.

And I do believe that the most important failure, though, in the bill was that the future legal immigration system would not work and was shown only to reduce illegal immigration into America by 13 percent, according to our own Congressional Budget Office. So the bill would be amnesty upfront, without enforcement, just like 1986.

HANNITY: Hey, Senator, I want to thank you publicly. You have been a great leader on this from the very beginning. And, you know, I don't know -- Alan and I are reading different polls. The American people are saying they did not want this bill, but they do want our borders secure here -- 80 percent of them do -- and I reject this characterization that the American people that were calling and shutting down that phone system there -- you know, this is the kind of participation and activism, you know, that our country was founded on, Senator. And the fact that they expressed passion about an important issue about securing this country and our borders, I think that's a great thing for America. Why are senators upset about that?

SESSIONS: I couldn't agree more. Senators who didn't like what they were saying were upset, but it didn't bother me. I was pleased to tell them I agreed with them. Fundamentally, the American people, Sean, have been right for 40 years. They've asked for a lawful system of immigration that works where people who do the right thing get rewarded. Those who do the wrong thing do not. And we've not giving them that, and they have a right to be upset with us.

HANNITY: I have a fundamental question here. I, for the life of me - - and we're going to play, for example, Senator Voinovich, who was on my radio show yesterday, he didn't -- he admitted he'd never read the bill. There's been no cost analysis. There have been no committee hearings on the bill. But yet, you know, he seemed to be leaning for it. He eventually voted against it.

There seems to be an arrogance, a condescension of people in Washington right now -- and this is Republican and Democrat -- and the attacks of people that stood by the rule of law and their principles was fairly unprecedented here. What do you make of this divide between the American people and Congress? Look at the approval ratings of Congress now.

SESSIONS: Well, I can't see those ratings, but I'll tell you, I know they're low.

HANNITY: Well, let me give it. Gallup poll, 15 percent, the lowest in the history of poll-taking for Congress.

SESSIONS: That is not good, and I do think there is a disconnect there. I think the American people felt disrespected. I think they felt slapped in the face almost. I think they felt that, after years of having politicians promise that they were going to do something about illegal immigration and not do it, they saw this as really a last chance. And they sent a message that, finally, I think the Senate began to hear, and maybe we'll get a message now.

HANNITY: Hey, Senator, I only have time for one more question. I think this is a key one and an important one. This bill is killed. It's not going forward. But the borders are still not secured nearly six years after 9/11. Can we build the fence? Can we hire the agents? Can we use new technologies? Can we prevent the enemies of this country from coming in? And how long will it take?

SESSIONS: It absolutely can be done; there's no doubt about this. It will cost us some money, and we'll have to have a leader and a management system in place that absolutely desires to see it happen. If we have the will, we can do it, and we can be proud of what we did.

COLMES: And do something about the people in this country, by the way, who need to be normalized in some way. That's got to be part of it.

HANNITY: No, it doesn't.

COLMES: Yes, it does. Most of the American people said they want that, too, according to almost every poll.

Senator, we thank you for being with us.

Coming up tonight, wrestling superstar "Stone Cold" Steve Austin's ex- wife is here is expose what she says is the real world of the WWE, and she talks about her abuse at the hands of Austin and why she survived, but Chris Benoit's wife did not.

And the immigration deal is dead, but the bickering over the deal got everybody worked up, especially Sean and Ohio Senator George Voinovich. We'll play you their testy exchange, coming up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Are you saying that I'm intimidating you?

SEN. GEORGE VOINOVICH (R), OHIO: No, no, I'm just saying, though, that a lot of the radio programs have really got out there and fired this thing up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HANNITY: And welcome back to "Hannity & Colmes." Yesterday on my radio show, I had quite the unusual and surprising interview with Republican Senator George Voinovich of Ohio. Now, the segment has been plastered all over the Internet, so today we wanted to play you the highlights so you can hear for yourself what happened. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HANNITY: For the record, you'd be against the Fairness Doctrine, wouldn't you?

SEN. GEORGE VOINOVICH (R), OHIO: The Fairness Doctrine? I'm for the Fairness Doctrine, whatever that is.

HANNITY: You're for the Fairness Doctrine?

VOINOVICH: Well, I think everybody ought to have their opportunity to share this opinion, sure. That's a good idea. Don't you? That's what you do on FOX every night, is you give both sides of the story, which is great.

HANNITY: No, but would you want to revise, bring back the Fairness Doctrine, as we had prior to 1988, which is these -- where we'd have this undefinable government agency monitoring...

VOINOVICH: No, no, no, no. You're supposed to let the...

HANNITY: That's the free market.

VOINOVICH: It's the free market, and that's why you guys have got such good coverage and Roger Ailes, my good buddy, is doing so well.

HANNITY: Let me move to this immigration bill here. We had this cloture vote yesterday, and now it's being debated, the different amendments, that are being debated here today. What is your position? We're going to have a cloture vote tomorrow. Are you going to vote to end debate, and would you support this bill as it currently stands? Or are you against this amnesty bill?

VOINOVICH: I think we owe the American people a vote on this bill, either for it or against it, and this bill still is in flux right now.

HANNITY: But the bill -- but what we're going to have is another cloture vote tomorrow, which would be intended to end basically the debate, limit the number of amendments that are going forward...

VOINOVICH: And that depends on how many amendments we get up on the floor today and what the arrangement is with the other side, because there are people that have legitimate amendments. For example, we were able to get an amendment up today that I voted for.

They tried to motion to table it, and that's Kay Bailey Hutchison's amendment that says these people, within two years, have got to go back home, and then reapply, and come back in the country. They just can't sit here for 10 years, or whatever it is, before -- and then ultimately, you know, get behind the line and end up getting a green card. So there's a lot of amendments that are really good amendments that would make this bill much better.

HANNITY: But didn't that amendment get shot down? I know, for example...

VOINOVICH: No, it passed today.

HANNITY: All right, but the other one that Kay Bailey Hutchison also had an amendment that was tabled, 53-45, earlier today that would require all adult immigrants to return home temporarily in order to qualify for permanent, lawful status.

VOINOVICH: No, no, I thought -- I thought the...

HANNITY: I have the A.P. story. Let me read it to you.

VOINOVICH: Oh, it's -- OK, she's -- it failed? I thought her amendment...

HANNITY: "The Senate on Wednesday killed a Republican proposal to require all adult illegal immigrants to return home temporarily in order to qualify for permanent, lawful status in the country."

VOINOVICH: They moved to...

HANNITY: Hang on.

VOINOVICH: ... I thought it passed, because the -- frankly, I voted for it, and I thought that it passed.

HANNITY: I just want to clarify for our audience here. The headline on A.P. is the following.

VOINOVICH: Yes.

HANNITY: "Plan to Send Immigrants Home is Defeated."

VOINOVICH: Well, the fact of the matter is that we are going to continue to have more amendments, and we'll see how that all works out.

HANNITY: So then the bottom line is that just reinforces -- and Kay Bailey Hutchison said, without this amendment, the amnesty tag that has been put on this bill will remain, it is the key issue in the bill for the American people, so that basically...

VOINOVICH: Well, that's -- that's -- I mean, I voted for her amendment, but -- but I'm -- if you're asking me what I'm going to do, I'm going to weigh all of this. I'm not going to tell you today I'm either for it or against it. I believe that we have an obligation to vote yes or no on this bill. I've had people back home, because of programs like yours and others, that have said to me, "You know, if you vote for this bill, then it's the end of your political career." And I just want you to know, and I want everybody else to know, that you do not intimidate George Voinovich. This is my 40th year in this business.

HANNITY: Senator, with all due respect, I'm not trying to intimidate you.

VOINOVICH: OK.

HANNITY: I'm just trying to get you -- are you saying that I'm intimidating you?

VOINOVICH: No, no, I'm just saying, though, that a lot of the radio programs have really got out there and fired this thing up. And so people are really hot about it. And I'm getting calls from people that basically are intimidating me, saying, "You know, if you do this, then I'm going to do that."

HANNITY: So if they voice their opinions, and they say to you that this is a defining bill for them in terms of the type of representation they want, you view that as a threat?

VOINOVICH: What I'm trying to say to you is, during my 40 years in this business, I voted on a lot of pieces of legislation. What I do is I weigh them. I look at the pros, and I look at the cons, and then I make a decision. And if that decision is something that a lot of people are unhappy about, then they'll have to take that into consideration the next time I'm up for election.

HANNITY: Senator, fair enough. I'm just -- to me, this is a defining issue, because I think this is one of the most important issues of our time. In terms of how, you know, people -- if they tell you it's a defining issue, I think they're just expressing to you their passions on the issue.

VOINOVICH: Sean, let me ask you something. Are you happy with the current -- are you happy with the current legislation that we have today? Are you happy with -- wait a second. Are you happy with the fact that we let in 50,000 people every year from unrepresented countries? Are you happy -- no, wait, let me finish.

HANNITY: Senator, let me answer your question. You go ahead.

VOINOVICH: Let me finish. Are you happy with the chain immigration that we have here that lets in mothers, sisters, brothers, cousins and aunts? This legislation cuts it back and says, if you get in here, you get a green card, you can bring your wife and you can bring your minority kids. You can't bring in the rest of your family anymore.

We said -- we've gone to the European style of setting up points. You can't get in here unless these points -- you're one of the categories that we need in this country. Our current law stinks. It's a terrible law.

HANNITY: Nobody's enforcing it, Senator. Nobody's built the fence. You guys, you know, allocated money for 700 miles of fence. We built two miles of it.

You know, to answer your question, it's five-and-a-half years, Senator, nearly six years since 9/11, and our borders still are not secure. You can't even tell me you've read this bill because, as of yesterday, the bill wasn't even completed and written. You haven't read the bill.

VOINOVICH: No, no, here's the statistics, OK?

HANNITY: Have you read the bill? Have you read this bill?

VOINOVICH: I have read most of the summaries on it. No, I haven't read every page of it.

HANNITY: Nobody's read it, because it wasn't written as of yesterday.

VOINOVICH: Well, Sean, I want to tell you something. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you.

HANNITY: You're running away because you can't answer a simple question.

VOINOVICH: No, I -- yes, I am running away.

HANNITY: You are. You're running away because you can't answer a question.

VOINOVICH: I was supposed to be on here for five minutes. Thank you very much, and I hope the next time around we have another subject that we can be more rational about.

HANNITY: Oh, so I'm irrational, because I disagree with you, the almighty senator?

VOINOVICH: Thank you very much.

HANNITY: OK, I get it. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLMES: He showed you.

HANNITY: Yes, he did? OK, and there you have it.

And coming up, more Democrats jump on the Fairness Doctrine bandwagon, as conservatives fight to keep talk radio free. One of them today went after Rush and myself on the House floor. We're going to play you that tape.

And later, the murder-suicide of Chris Benoit and his family shaking up the wrestling world. The wife of famed wrestler "Stone Cold" Steve Austin blows the lid off a life in the ring. That's all straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DAVID OBEY (D), WISCONSIN: I want to see the real, raw Rush. I want him and folks like him to be thoroughly and fully exposed to the American listening audience. Rush and Sean are just about as important in the scheme of things as Paris Hilton.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HANNITY: Ouch.

COLMES: Don't kid yourself, she's important. Anyway, that was Wisconsin Congressman David Obey calling out Hannity, Limbaugh and talk radio. He's joining the chorus of Democrats that want to bring the Fairness Doctrine back into the fold. Conservatives now launching a counter fight to keep the airwaves free of legislation.

Joining us now, a man who has been an outspoken critic of the Fairness Doctrine, Indiana Congressman Mike Pence. Congressman, you were in our business at one point. Anybody who's been in our business -- and I haven't talked to anybody on either side of the spectrum who's on our side of the microphone that would support a Fairness Doctrine coming back. And you've got some rank-and-file Democrats with you, don't you?

REP. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: Well, we did. The Pence amendment on the floor today, which denies the ability of the FCC for a year to use any funds to bring the so-called Fairness Doctrine back passed with all Republican support. But, Alan, we got more than 100 rank-and-file Democrats to support us. And let me acknowledge, Alan, you and Sean coming together last night on this program and supporting our efforts to say no to government regulation of the airwaves of America was deeply meaningful and had an impact on the Hill.

COLMES: Thank you. Let me ask you, Derek Turner, by the way, who is the research director for Free Press that did this study with Center for American Progress that people are citing here, they didn't talk about the Fairness Doctrine. They talked about diversity of ownership. And Derek Turner says he's against this. He's not supporting the Fairness Doctrine, by the way. The guy who did the Center for American Progress report that's often been cited here, I think that's been a little misrepresented in some quarters.

PENCE: Well, that's absolutely right, Alan, but I think that John Podesta's group, the Center for American Progress, produced that report, entitled "The Structural Imbalance of American Talk Radio." That set the stage for a number of extremely prominent, powerful people to step forward and begin to make the intellectual case to return the Fairness Doctrine, should, you know, quite frankly, a Democrat take control of the White House, the FCC in a Democrat administration could simply do this by a change in regulations.

COLMES: But that's not what they talked about. They were not talking about the Fairness Doctrine. And, by the way, didn't Trent Lott, even he doesn't support the Fairness Doctrine, set in motion some of this when he said talk radio is running the country?

PENCE: Well, I think Trent Lott's comments -- his initial comments on this were very disconcerting to a lot of us that cherish the free airwaves and want to see the Fairness Doctrine stay on the ash heap of broadcast history, but let me just say, I think the Podesta report, while it didn't openly advocate the Fairness Doctrine, Alan, it did advocate a whole new range of regulations which would have the effect of, I believe, squelching what has become this dynamic, free-wheeling talk radio market.

HANNITY: Hey, Congressman, it's Sean Hannity. By the way, thank you for what you're doing here.

PENCE: Thank you, Sean.

HANNITY: This is important, because -- and I think Newt Gingrich labeled it correctly last night. This is about censorship. This is a direct assault on the First Amendment in this country and an effort to silence the American people, especially in the lead-up towards elections here.

Now, I want to get to this Podesta report about this structural imbalance in talk radio. This is almost even worse, because they want to intimidate station owners and use the government through regulation that, if you don't put these shows on the air, that they're going to monitor or limit the number of stations that they can have in markets. That is almost as bad, if not worse, isn't it?

PENCE: Well, it really is. And let me tell you how long I've been listening, not only to you, Sean, but I know what Radio Graffiti is. That's how long I've been listening to Alan.

HANNITY: Boy, that's Alan Colmes, yes.

PENCE: Look, the reality is that any talk out of Washington, D.C., about the structure of the American political debate is inconsistent with the ideals of the American people. We want the American people to have the broadest array of voices and ideas, and they'll make their choices about where they get their information.

HANNITY: But I think this is sinister, because I think this is a concerted effort -- you know, through McCain-Feingold, the Fairness Doctrine, the intimidation of broadcast station groups and owners, to silence people and, more specifically, politicians, in the lead-up to the elections. My question to you is, how real is this threat? Do you think the Senate will go along with you? Trent Lott, by the way, is against the Fairness Doctrine. I interviewed him. Do you think the Senate will help you out here? And do you think we can make this permanent, not just for a year?

PENCE: Well, since the victory of the Pence amendment on the floor, we've already heard from several members of the Senate who are interested in bringing our core bill, the Broadcast Freedom Act, to the floor. But, look, let me talk about the long-term. My colleague, Congressman Jeff Flake, had the idea to bring the fight to this appropriations bill and deny funding for a year, and kudos for that today, but we have to pass the Broadcast Freedom Act and deny the FCC...

HANNITY: Absolutely.

PENCE: ... permanently the right to change the rules. And we're going to fight to do that.

COLMES: All right, Congressman, we'll be following it. We thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you for your time tonight, sir.

PENCE: You bet.

COLMES: Coming up, a "Hannity & Colmes" exclusive. The wife of wrestling icon "Stone Cold" Steve Austin pulls back the curtain on the ugly world of the WWE. Plus, there are explosive new details in the Chris Benoit case. The "Superstar" Billy Graham takes the pulse of the wrestling nation, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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